Keeping Trespassers out....is it possible?

[wthunter]

Why would he want to look into a prescriptive easement if noone is claiming one? It is foolish as a landowner to do so and even give the perception he thinks one might exist. Since it isn't written, what is he supposed to do, ask every trespasser how long they have been illegally accessing his land? Ask the neighbors how long people have been illegally accessing his land? Ask them if they feel they have a prescriptive easement? Yeah, that seems like a great idea. As a landowner who likely paid a lot of money for the land, I rather leave it up to Joe blow public to prove one exists. Guess that makes me a POS like you say...

It is one thing if one particular neighbor has been driving through a property for years to get to a back feedlot to access his cattle without a written easement. Then you could lecture me on his rights if the property sells and the new owner doesn't want him driving through. It is entirely different when you want to open up someone's land to the public just because they don't want to walk 3 miles in from a different direction....

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Praxeus]

Idahohiker.....Your stuck on this. I already consulted with a RE attorney in the state where my property is. He said a driveway would qualify for this. A trail that zig zags across private property, no. Im scratching my head as to why some are seemingly in favor of gaining access when Im attempting to secure my legal borders. Could it be that the bigger angst is that liberal non-hunters are land locking public land by purchasing vast tracts of private property? It sounds like some are attempting to settle an unrealistic score using this premise. Its real simple: I buy acreage, I post no trespassing signs. The law and ownership stands behind my wishes. End of story.

 

[RockinU]

People can be in favor of access, while you work to secure your borders. It's just a different viewpoint. Not sure where the liberal thing came from, but you're right, unless there is a successful challenge, the law is on your side, and if this is how you choose to address it, people should respect your wishes. I think you are going to have to work at it though, guys who have been using that trail since their Grandpas took them down it are going to be hard minds to change.

People deal with these things in different ways, I've been in the country all my life, and at least where I'm from, we take a little more relaxed approach to these things, although I have noticed that a lot of people who move to the country from town, are super sensitive about their property lines...they usually make difficult neighbors.

 

[wthunter]

People can be in favor of access, while you work to secure your borders. It's just a different viewpoint. Not sure where the liberal thing came from, but you're right, unless there is a successful challenge, the law is on your side, and if this is how you choose to address it, people should respect your wishes. I think you are going to have to work at it though, guys who have been using that trail since their Grandpas took them down it are going to be hard minds to change.

People deal with these things in different ways, I've been in the country all my life, and at least where I'm from, we take a little more relaxed approach to these things, although I have noticed that a lot of people who move to the country from town, are super sensitive about their property lines...they usually make difficult neighbors.

I respect your post RockinU

You are right, there are 2 different perspectives. One is typically a landowner (one who hunts) perspective and the other is the non-landowner. My perspective has certainly changed through the years after kicking off countless disrespectful trespassers and poachers. People just feel entitled to do as they wish. There is no consideration for the cost, work, and sacrifice that goes into purchasing a farm/ranch. I've even had people try to kick me off my own land before. Deal with those situations enough times, and you might get a little grouchy about the subject.

Working with neighbors is a completely different story. If I have a neighbor who comes and asks to walk across my ground to get to his back 40, drive back to put in foodplots, or wants to take his grandson out turkey hunting, my attitude is completely different. In most cases I allow it. But if I just caught someone doing that, that is when I get upset. Again, it is a respect issue for me.

 

[MattB]

Don't feel you need to justify why you want to restrict trespassing on your deeded property. Many want to rationalize having this airtime of access without having skin in the game.

 

[wthunter]

Don't feel you need to justify why you want to restrict trespassing on your deeded property. Many want to rationalize having this airtime of access without having skin in the game.

Ding ding.

 

[Praxeus]

People can be in favor of access, while you work to secure your borders. It's just a different viewpoint. Not sure where the liberal thing came from, but you're right, unless there is a successful challenge, the law is on your side, and if this is how you choose to address it, people should respect your wishes. I think you are going to have to work at it though, guys who have been using that trail since their Grandpas took them down it are going to be hard minds to change.

People deal with these things in different ways, I've been in the country all my life, and at least where I'm from, we take a little more relaxed approach to these things, although I have noticed that a lot of people who move to the country from town, are super sensitive about their property lines...they usually make difficult neighbors.

The comment regarding liberals buying up private property that blocks/ restricts access to NF is a reality. I just talked to a guy last night at a family gathering that told me that an outfitter in CO took him into NF this way. Its a reality.

To be clear, there are other ways to access the areas via NF, it just would require commitment and effort. If trespassing is your only option, you probably dont represent the majority of outdoor enthusiasts that enjoy this particular site (Rokslide).

 

[idahohikker]

OP, maybe that’s the rule in your state. Sounds doubtful to me though. It’s definitely not the general rule and there would have to be some unique law.

Many people on this site have no clue what prescriptive easements are. It’s fact specific but in many cases the well-worn trail without permission means there is legal public access.

To not investigate and close your eyes is really sad and misguided. So you value private property rights even when you’re taking a lawful right from the public? If you are an ethical landowner, you need to know if lawful public access exists or not and what the proper boundaries are. If you are an ethical hiker or hunter, you have to do the same.

Figure out what you own and then post no trespassing signs all over. I won’t get into whether or not I think that makes sense given the surrounding property ownership.

 

[RockinU]

I respect your post RockinU

You are right, there are 2 different perspectives. One is typically a landowner (one who hunts) perspective and the other is the non-landowner. My perspective has certainly changed through the years after kicking off countless disrespectful trespassers and poachers. People just feel entitled to do as they wish. There is no consideration for the cost, work, and sacrifice that goes into purchasing a farm/ranch. I've even had people try to kick me off my own land before. Deal with those situations enough times, and you might get a little grouchy about the subject.

Working with neighbors is a completely different story. If I have a neighbor who comes and asks to walk across my ground to get to his back 40, drive back to put in foodplots, or wants to take his grandson out turkey hunting, my attitude is completely different. In most cases I allow it. But if I just caught someone doing that, that is when I get upset. Again, it is a respect issue for me.

I get that, and it is about respect. Last Friday night, I heard a bunch of baying in my back pasture, where I have a set of cows with calves, and went to check it out. There were 3 young men with a bunch of dogs who had a sounder of hogs bayed in the creek bottom. They told me where they had started hunting, and I understand that they have no control over the grouup of hogs that their dogs are on crossing fences, and that the dogs don't understand what a fence means either.

I treated them as I would like to be treated if I were in their position. I gave them my phone number, and asked them to please shoot me a text in the future when they were planning to turn their dogs loose in my area, so that if I heard them, I wouldn't have to get up in the middle of the night to come check it out. I told them that as long as they didn't tear anything up, or cause any problems, and they let me know they would be in the area before hand, they had permission to cross my fences to get their dogs. I was reasonable, they were respectful, and everyone left the encounter feeling good about it.

 

[Praxeus]

I get that, and it is about respect. Last Friday night, I heard a bunch of baying in my back pasture, where I have a set of cows with calves, and went to check it out. There were 3 young men with a bunch of dogs who had a sounder of hogs bayed in the creek bottom. They told me where they had started hunting, and I understand that they have no control over the grouup of hogs that their dogs are on crossing fences, and that the dogs don't understand what a fence means either.

I treated them as I would like to be treated if I were in their position. I gave them my phone number, and asked them to please shoot me a text in the future when they were planning to turn their dogs loose in my area, so that if I heard them, I wouldn't have to get up in the middle of the night to come check it out. I told them that as long as they didn't tear anything up, or cause any problems, and they let me know they would be in the area before hand, they had permission to cross my fences to get their dogs. I was reasonable, they were respectful, and everyone left the encounter feeling good about it.

You are definitely my type of a nieghbor. Your tact reveals much. Thanks for sharing this

 

[Praxeus]

OP, maybe that’s the rule in your state. Sounds doubtful to me though. It’s definitely not the general rule and there would have to be some unique law.

Many people on this site have no clue what prescriptive easements are. It’s fact specific but in many cases the well-worn trail without permission means there is legal public access.

To not investigate and close your eyes is really sad and misguided. So you value private property rights even when you’re taking a lawful right from the public? If you are an ethical landowner, you need to know if lawful public access exists or not and what the proper boundaries are. If you are an ethical hiker or hunter, you have to do the same.

Figure out what you own and then post no trespassing signs all over. I won’t get into whether or not I think that makes sense given the surrounding property ownership.

Idahohiker.....I did investigate this. And- I have been in contact with NF ranger district, Sheriffs Dept. Department of fish and game and finally a qualified and respected real estate lawyer in this state. No one at anytime has mentioned that this was a "established trail" or that there were rights to an easement of any type. It's trespassing. Period.

To say that we haven't investigated and have "closed our eyes" is just not true. It makes me wonder why you are pushing this particular easement so hard when in fact, it doesn't apply to this situation. Then- to say we are taking a lawful right away from the public? Hmm. Makes me wonder what really is the basis for your baseless assertions..

 

[idahohikker]

Idahohiker.....I did investigate this. And- I have been in contact with NF ranger district, Sheriffs Dept. Department of fish and game and finally a qualified and respected real estate lawyer in this state. No one at anytime has mentioned that this was a "established trail" or that there were rights to an easement of any type. It's trespassing. Period.

To say that we haven't investigated and have "closed our eyes" is just not true. It makes me wonder why you are pushing this particular easement so hard when in fact, it doesn't apply to this situation. Then- to say we are taking a lawful right away from the public? Hmm. Makes me wonder what really is the basis for your baseless assertions..

This is the first we’ve heard about you talking to the agencies. Thats great. The explanation from the lawyer didn’t make very much sense. I think you need to keep working at determining the answer. However, that is impressive you’ve spoken to those agencies. You’re doing more than most. If the agencies all tell you there’s nothing for you to worry about, you should feel great.

The reason why this matters to me is that (a) so few people know about and actually understand what easements are and (b) the idea of ignoring possible legal public access and just posting is abhorrent when landowners expect the public to know the details of legal access in or around their property. Landowners should be more responsible like you have been in investigating.

 

[Travis907]

Do you have signs and cameras up? It’s always good if you know who the trespassers are to personally contact them and ask them to stay off but I imagine if you border a NF you will not know most of them. Trespassing is always a problem everywhere. People know what they are doing so definitely prosecute them. Word will spread quickly that you are a serious landowner and most people don’t take it to heart until you get into their pocket book.

 

[wheelman46]

Feeling your pain. Looking for the silver bullet answer as well.

 

[dtrkyman]

Make the trail impassible.


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[Praxeus]

Make the trail impassible.


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After consulting with legal reps, NF personal and others....this is without question, the very best option. The real challenge is going to be to get the proper equipment/ machinery into this spot. It won't be easy

 

[Schaefer18]

I will add that once we started to prosecute those that are choosing to trespass, the word got out. Prosecuted 12 the first year, only about 1/2 that the next and now only a few each year.

I also go out of my way to help those who are doing it right. If they take game legally on government lands, I have made my contact info available and will help them with recovery. I have hauled dozens of elk and deer to the road through our ranch to help the ones who respect the boundaries. This is great for public relations and they will return the favor by reporting to you when others cheat. I actually am very glad to help those who play by the rules. Not all are bad guys. But there are plenty of bad eggs to go around for sure.

I'm not a land owner but deal with a similar situation every year. I hike 4-5 miles into an area, follow all the rules, respect the landowners. While others sign in at a different ranch, trespass, to get to the same area I'm in but only have to hike 1 1/2 of easy terrain. Very frustrating.

 

[Schaefer18]

Only idea I haven't seen shared yet is to publicly post pictures of the trespassers in the act. Try to shame them into staying out.

If it was me and an option I'd first talk to the person. I'd tell them I have the pics and if they ever come back I'll show them to anyone who will look. If the person has a reputation to protect they won't want pictures shared of them trespassing. The new social media world is plenty willing to attack anyone who does anything wrong. Depending on who it is they might get mad and try to get even, so use this at your own risk.

Just curious, if prosecuted in Montana what are the penalties? I see guys do it all the time while I follow the rules, usually screwing me up in the process very frustrating.

 

[DenverCountryBoy]

After consulting with legal reps, NF personal and others....this is without question, the very best option. The real challenge is going to be to get the proper equipment/ machinery into this spot. It won't be easy

Chainsaws, ropes, pulleys, and come alongs are pretty easy to transport. "Give me a big enough lever and I will break the world" or something like that.

 

[mcseal2]

Just curious, if prosecuted in Montana what are the penalties? I see guys do it all the time while I follow the rules, usually screwing me up in the process very frustrating.

I honestly don't know, likely they are minimal. In KS where I live they often get off if the landowner doesn't show up for court also. It doesn't seem to deter a lot of people. The bad reputation trespassers get does far more to prevent future incidents than the legal penalty I think.