Joseph von Benedikt vs Formidilosus

[RockAndSage]

You bet I would, but I’m using the rifle/load I put together because it works just fine.

And I still own a 30-06.

Because it works "just fine."

But it's also partial-Fuddery.

Because "just fine" has proven to be much less optimal in the realities of the field than smaller cartridges firing match bullets, practiced with far more often at much less cost, in far more varieties of field-realistic shooting positions.

 

[Wyobohunter]

BTW, I do love the 1911 and have two. Only one is chambered in .45 ACP, because (IMO) 10mm Auto is a much better cartridge for bears. I have two pistols in 9mm Luger, a Glock 43 and a Sig P226.

In other words, I have more non-.45 ACP non-1911s than .45 ACP 1911s, but I still like the .45 for what it was designed for and in the pistol chambered for it (Dan Wesson V-Bob Commander).

 

[Wyobohunter]

That was my point..


I'm not missing something, you added something. I said 5 shots, not multiple groups with correlated size and POI. That's completely different.

So, we agree. The only thing contested is… Where are all of these Fudds? I’ve still not been shown an example. You could post a link, or quote said Fuddery. Until then, it seems like a way to claim superiority over a strawman.

 

[RockAndSage]

So, we agree. The only thing contested is… Where are all of these Fudds? I’ve still not been shown an example. You could post a link, or quote said Fuddery. Until then, it seems like a way to claim superiority over a strawman.

So, would it be fair to say that this is the core thing you're objecting to here - that you see less actual Fudds than others seem to be claiming? That it's some sort of strawman?

 

[CorbLand]

Technically, the term Fudd started out as the people that were against advancement in weapon types for civilians. "I support the second amendment but..." types.

Then like most terms, they get overused to the point that they lose their meaning, which is what has happened.

 

[Wyobohunter]

And I still own a 30-06.

Because it works "just fine."

But it's also partial-Fuddery.

Because "just fine" has proven to be much less optimal in the realities of the field than smaller cartridges firing match bullets, practiced with far more often at much less cost, in far more varieties of field-realistic shooting positions.

I build match grade ammunition: neck sized brass, uniformed necks, de-burred flash holes, bench rest primers, weight sorted brass, weight sorted bullets, every charge weighed... I shoot the same, in 30-06. I’d prefer to do the same in a flatter cartridge, for sure. If you saw my Tikka you’d probably laugh, I chopped the barrel to 18” and the whole thing (loaded/scope/sling) weighs almost exactly 6 lbs. My 180 Swift Scirocco 2 bullets are trundling along at 2598 fps, but averages .625 inches at 100 yds (three shots). My personal limit with this rifle is 440 yards under ideal conditions. I could definitely stretch that with a newer chambering, but I’m probably not going to. A Baja moto trip can be paid for with that money. I’m never very disappointed to not pack an elk out, I’m there for the backpacking as much as the killing, so the additional 200 yards isn’t very important to me.

 

[Wyobohunter]

So, would it be fair to say that this is the core thing you're objecting to here - that you see less actual Fudds than others seem to be claiming? That it's some sort of strawman?

Yes.

 

[CorbLand]

Fudds on .45s:

Fudd: "I carry a .45 because 2 world wars, they don't make a .46, etc, etc, I don't care what you have to say, because there's no replacement for displacement."

Partial Fudd: "I like a 1911 in .45 because I trust it and I hit with it, but you do you. I know lots of guys who run 9mms and they seem to do just fine with them, but it's not for me."

Former Fudd: "I used to carry a 1911 in .45, but found that when I actually tried a 9mm 2011 I hit better and faster and could carry 3x the ammo in one mag. Win win all the way around."


Fudds on 30-06s:

Fudd: "30-06 because 2 world wars, and if it's good enough for John Garand and John Moses Browning, it's good enough for me. I don't care what "data" you have, sonny. Varmint cartridges for varmints, I'm not going to waste my time trying what I know is dumb and unethical."

Partial Fudd: "I love my 30-06 Tikka, because I hit great with it and just don't see the need to try going down in caliber, but I'm open to the idea of trying something smaller at some point. It's good to hear other guys are having success with smaller cartridges though."

Former Fudd: "I used to love using my 30-06 on everything, but I discovered my first-round hit rate went up quite a bit in the realities of field conditions with smaller cartridges after I actually tried them, and literally saw no difference in killing capability with the smaller cartridges using match bullets once I started trying them. I love my 6mm Creedmoor, and haven't looked back."


See the difference?

Mindset and experience matter.

I would say where you are wrong is that one is not any form of a Fudd because they choose to use a specific weapon, cartridge, caliber, etc. It is more based on the mindset surrounding it.

I dont understand the allure to ARs, I dont have a suppressor, SBRs are cool but no desire to own one, I shoot a 7mag but a 6CM does the same thing. I am not a Fudd because I dont judge or look down on anyone that does it different than I do.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I would say where you are wrong is that one is not any form of a Fudd because they choose to use a specific weapon, cartridge, caliber, etc. It is more based on the mindset surrounding it.

I dont understand the allure to ARs, I dont have a suppressor, SBRs are cool but no desire to own one, I shoot a 7mag but a 6CM does the same thing. I am not a Fudd because I dont judge or look down on anyone that does it different than I do.

Winner of chicken dinner.

 

[RockAndSage]

I would say where you are wrong is that one is not any form of a Fudd because they choose to use a specific weapon, cartridge, caliber, etc. It is more based on the mindset surrounding it.

Pretty sure I made the mindset point about 4 times above. Including in the post you're quoting here. The cartridges are examples.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Pretty sure I made the mindset point about 4 times above. Including in the post you're quoting here. The cartridges are examples.

Fair point.

 

[Axlrod]

Technically, the term Fudd started out as the people that were against advancement in weapon types for civilians. "I support the second amendment but..." types.

Then like most terms, they get overused to the point that they lose their meaning, which is what has happened.
View attachment 816260

It has been quite a few decades since I watched Looney Tunes, but I don't remember Elmer Fudd EVER kill Bugs or any other bunny!

 

[CorbLand]

Pretty sure I made the mindset point about 4 times above. Including in the post you're quoting here. The cartridges are examples.

Unless I read your post wrong, based on what you said, I would be a "partial fudd" because I choose to shoot what I shoot and am open to the idea that there are other cartridges that are just as capable.

I shoot a 7mag and think a 6cm is just fine, I just dont shoot one. I am not any form a Fudd for that.

Bottom line is, if you are open minded, you cannot be a fudd. The ability to say "this is what I like and do but others like and do others things and thats ok" immediately eliminates you from being a fudd.

 

[RockAndSage]

Yes.

The strawman, red herrings, glittering generalities...those ad hominems do get thrown around a lot, and it really does cloud the discussion.

And to be as fair as possible, there aren't too many people on the planet who 100% fit a stereotype. But stereotypes do exist for a reason, and people get called out on it when they start exhibiting too much of it.

In one of your first posts about this here, you asked for a definition of a Fudd, and for examples of JVB behaving in a Fuddly manner (my words, not yours). The info I shared in defining a Fudd, I believe, to be a pretty fair explanation of their mindset, behavior, and what most people tend to mean when using that term, at present. I also attempted to show that being a Fudd isn't an all-or-nothing thing, but a bit of a spectrum. But it is a very real thing - and you see different flavors of it in different hobbies, like different generations of car guys, music enthusiasts, etc (there does seem to be a generational component to it)

As to JVB, he's used a number of ad hominems of his own on the small cartridge issue, mostly various forms of appeals to authority and glittering generalities, to act like a Fudd. Types of "everybody knows", "it's always been done", the like. Making thinly veiled references to Form and others on here as "self-styled experts", as though he is any more of one for being a gun commentator. But he also somewhat advocates for the "Taylor Knockout Formula" and frontal diameter as a proxy of "wallop" - stuff like that, of very questionable scientific validity, that would in theory mean you can't kill well with an arrow. But the bottom line is he's dismissing a huge amount of data and accumulated personal experiences and annectodal evidence here that, all added up, can't be dismissed. And that's the core of his Fuddery to me - dismissal of evidence and new ways of thinking because he knows better.

That said, I personally think most hunters have varying degrees of Fuddery to them, but they tend to be issue-specific. Totally dressed up like a Kuiu Kenny instead of flannel and jeans, and shooting a 30-06, but one with match bullets out of a carbon-fibered sub-MOA gun. That, or buying into a couple of bits of Fudd lore, while not being much of a Fudd (this happened recently to me personally, regarding shooting non-Garand 30-06 ammo in a Garand. TLDR, it's fine, the data's there, but Fudd lore means most people just know better, repeat it, and dismiss claims of guys who've done it as dangerous or just lucky).

 

[Wyobohunter]

The strawman, red herrings, glittering generalities...those ad hominems do get thrown around a lot, and it really does cloud the discussion.

And to be as fair as possible, there aren't too many people on the planet who 100% fit a stereotype. But stereotypes do exist for a reason, and people get called out on it when they start exhibiting too much of it.

In one of your first posts about this here, you asked for a definition of a Fudd, and for examples of JVB behaving in a Fuddly manner (my words, not yours). The info I shared in defining a Fudd, I believe, to be a pretty fair explanation of their mindset, behavior, and what most people tend to mean when using that term, at present. I also attempted to show that being a Fudd isn't an all-or-nothing thing, but a bit of a spectrum. But it is a very real thing - and you see different flavors of it in different hobbies, like different generations of car guys, music enthusiasts, etc (there does seem to be a generational component to it)

As to JVB, he's used a number of ad hominems of his own on the small cartridge issue, mostly various forms of appeals to authority and glittering generalities, to act like a Fudd. Types of "everybody knows", "it's always been done", the like. Making thinly veiled references to Form and others on here as "self-styled experts", as though he is any more of one for being a gun commentator. But he also somewhat advocates for the "Taylor Knockout Formula" and frontal diameter as a proxy of "wallop" - stuff like that, of very questionable scientific validity, that would in theory mean you can't kill well with an arrow. But the bottom line is he's dismissing a huge amount of data and accumulated personal experiences and annectodal evidence here that, all added up, can't be dismissed. And that's the core of his Fuddery to me - dismissal of evidence and new ways of thinking because he knows better.

That said, I personally think most hunters have varying degrees of Fuddery to them, but they tend to be issue-specific. Totally dressed up like a Kuiu Kenny instead of flannel and jeans, and shooting a 30-06, but one with match bullets out of a carbon-fibered sub-MOA gun. That, or buying into a couple of bits of Fudd lore, while not being much of a Fudd (this happened recently to me personally, regarding shooting non-Garand 30-06 ammo in a Garand. TLDR, it's fine, the data's there, but Fudd lore means most people just know better, repeat it, and dismiss claims of guys who've done it as dangerous or just lucky).

An ad hominem is one very specific rhetorical fallacy, where did JVB attack a person over the small caliber debate? I give you, he could have done this, and the other things you mentioned; I just haven’t seen it.

Seriously on the M1 ammo? No issues with the op rod? I’ve always loaded my M1 ammo using NRA M1 specific data. Do you have some information you could share? I’m not saying you’re wrong… I’m saying, it would be nice to know it isn’t necessary. I shoot my M1 loads in my bolt gun (pretty darn accurate) but never put the bolt gun loads in the M1. I’d love it if they were completely interchangeable. Though I’ll admit that I have doubts it’d work for me. My bolt gun ammo is fire formed to the bolt gun, the M1 takes a small base sizing die. I’m not confident that the bolt gun loads would chamber reliably… or safely.

 

[RockAndSage]

An ad hominem is one very specific rhetorical fallacy, where did JVB attack a person over the small caliber debate? I give you, he could have done this, and the other things you mentioned; I just haven’t seen it.

Seriously on the M1 ammo? No issues with the op rod? I’ve always loaded my M1 ammo using NRA M1 specific data. Do you have some information you could share? I’m not saying you’re wrong… I’m saying, it would be nice to know it isn’t necessary. I shoot my M1 loads in my bolt gun (pretty darn accurate) but never put the bolt gun loads in the M1. I’d love it if they were completely interchangeable.

Given that it's been in videos/podcasts, I don't have a reference for you on specific times to look at, but check out his videos on the small-caliber debate.

Regarding the Garand stuff, it was very eye-opening for me, and really reinforced just how hard Fudd-lore can be to recognize or dislodge, once embedded in the culture. I ate plenty of crow on it:

Looking to buy a Garand, what do I need to know?

I’m looking to buy a Garand. What do I need to know? I’ve been a history buff all my life and I’ve always wanted one. Now that I’m retired I have time to go the range more often. Not really serious shooting, Do I just buy one from the CMP?

rokslide.com

 

[RockAndSage]

An ad hominem is one very specific rhetorical fallacy, where did JVB attack a person over the small caliber debate? I give you, he could have done this, and the other things you mentioned; I just haven’t seen it.

Seriously on the M1 ammo? No issues with the op rod? I’ve always loaded my M1 ammo using NRA M1 specific data. Do you have some information you could share? I’m not saying you’re wrong… I’m saying, it would be nice to know it isn’t necessary. I shoot my M1 loads in my bolt gun (pretty darn accurate) but never put the bolt gun loads in the M1. I’d love it if they were completely interchangeable.

There was some discussion of the videos mentioned in this thread, that may (or may not) be worth wading through: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/avery-vs-jvb-podcast-back-and-forths.381533/

 

[Wyobohunter]

There was some discussion of the videos mentioned in this thread, that may (or may not) be worth wading through: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/avery-vs-jvb-podcast-back-and-forths.381533/

I’ll watch, and reverse my opinion if he repeats any Fuddisms.

eta: do you have a specific video in mind?

 

[Archer86]

Everyone in here is a fudd if you carry a weapon in the woods to harvest animals someone considers you a fudd

 

[wind gypsy]

Everyone in here is a fudd if you carry a weapon in the woods to harvest animals someone considers you a fudd

But i do it with an AR decked out in 5.11 Tactical garments.