Joseph von Benedikt vs Formidilosus

[Grundy53]

You know... 6.5 is one of the smaller calibers, right?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

 

[CMP70306]

You know... 6.5 is one of the smaller calibers, right?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Technically yes, but I also know I grew up killing deer with 150gr SST out of a 30-06 at 2900 fps and never had one not expire quickly. The 143 ELD-X at 2800 fps in the 18” 6.5 PRC is pretty much the same thing if not better past 200 yards though I haven’t gotten to try it yet on game as I’ve been trying various 109 to 125gr fragmenting monos from 3100 to 3400 fps the past few years.

What I learned is that all monos aren’t created equal and while the Lehigh Defense 145gr Brass Chaos bullets in the 30-06 were incredibly lethal with tons of damage, huge blood trails and near instant death at close range the copper monos in the 6.5 definitely resulted in less reactions, longer kill times, farther runs and smaller blood trails with the smaller projectiles.

We switched over to the 178gr ELD-X last year in the 30-06 and got one instant death, one staggered for a few seconds then dropped and one short 30 yard run, mostly downhill. Much more noticeable reactions on game than the 6.5 monos which had several deer run 100 to 150 yards with little to no blood trail and no indication they were hit. I carried the 6.5 the rest of the season but did not get another shot at a doe to try the 143’s though I would expect the performance to be similar to the 178s.

 

[DisplacedHusky]

Shots fired! On the recent episode of the Backcountry Hunting Podcast, JVB takes aim at the “self-styled” experts that advocate using small calibers on big game. Some of the things he mentions in his rant seem to suggest he has read a few threads on here. He thinks using small calibers for big game is a flash in the pan.

On a prior Shoot 2 Hunt. I heard Jake and Ryan trying to use Rob Gearing as an intermediary to get JVB on the podcast. Let’s make this happen.

 

[z987k]

Shots fired! On the recent episode of the Backcountry Hunting Podcast, JVB takes aim at the “self-styled” experts that advocate using small calibers on big game. Some of the things he mentions in his rant seem to suggest he has read a few threads on here. He thinks using small calibers for big game is a flash in the pan.

On a prior Shoot 2 Hunt. I heard Jake and Ryan trying to use Rob Gearing as an intermediary to get JVB on the podcast. Let’s make this happen.

I don't think it's even that popular now. Outside this forum, I've never met a person that would consider such a thing. I think the days of mega magnums, knock down power and pie plate at 100y accuracy are still very alive and well.

 

[donrleonard]

Longtime JVB podcast listener here. To correct the record, JVB is not a fan of energy stats--mainly because the way the math works out velocity is over-emphasized. I actually think he and Form would finish each-other's sentences here.

JVB also adamantly opposes the idea of knockdown power. What he does seem to advocate is frontal diameter and what he terms visible impact authority. For that reason, he cautiously favors the Taylor Knockout Formula. In this, he and Form would have a lot of things to talk about.

The other area they would have much to discuss is bullet construction. JVB seems to favor bonded or mono-metal bullets over match-style cup-and-core. Though in a post that appeared on his Patreon channel, I noticed his kids hunted and took deer with Hornady ELDX this fall.

That is where my own confusions lie. I selected the 7PRC because it offered the highest BCs and thus wind-bucking ability, since I am a rookie shooter who doesn't know how to judge wind. I haven't shot with the ELDs, however, because I am concerned with them coming apart on shoulder impacts inside of 200 yards.

In his appearances on Exo's Hunt Backcountry podcast (probably my other favorite), Form speaks compellingly about the near total lack of evidence for shoulders stopping match bullets like the ELDM. Then I go on my 7PRC forums. For every 10 successful ELD posts I read I'll see one like this that gives me pause and keeps me reaching for Barnes LRX.

 

[DisplacedHusky]

I don't think it's even that popular now. Outside this forum, I've never met a person that would consider such a thing. I think the days of mega magnums, knock down power and pie plate at 100y accuracy are still very alive and well.

My recent trip to a public range supports your theory.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Every forum has their following and “that” guy. Long range hunting forum loves hammer bullets. Here they get laughed at. What annoys me is the intolerance for differing opinions. You’ll see it as “you don’t … enough because if you did, you’d know I’m right”. Everyone likes to be on the fringes, somehow it makes them feel cutting edge and different, the reality is there is a middle for a reason…

 

[CMP70306]

I don't think it's even that popular now. Outside this forum, I've never met a person that would consider such a thing. I think the days of mega magnums, knock down power and pie plate at 100y accuracy are still very alive and well.

My recent trip to a public range supports your theory.

I mean realistically the whole .223 thing boils down to a marginal improvement in accuracy due to reduced recoil. After all there is nothing the 77gr TMK does that the 105gr 6mm, 143gr 6.5mm, 175gr 7mm or 212gr 30 cal of similar construction can’t do as good if not better due to their larger mass and frontal area.

 

[Choupique]

After all there is nothing the 77gr TMK does that the 105gr 6mm, 143gr 6.5mm, 175gr 7mm or 212gr 30 cal of similar construction can’t do as good if not better due to their larger mass and frontal area.

I think I remember seeing some posts from that match bullet posse of game shot with .30 cal match bullets, and the argument that it was just way too nasty and destructive.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I mean realistically the whole .223 thing boils down to a marginal improvement in accuracy due to reduced recoil. After all there is nothing the 77gr TMK does that the 105gr 6mm, 143gr 6.5mm, 175gr 7mm or 212gr 30 cal of similar construction can’t do as good if not better due to their larger mass and frontal area.

Yep. But it wouldn’t be controversial.

 

[KenLee]

I think I remember seeing some posts from that match bullet posse of game shot with .30 cal match bullets, and the argument that it was just way too nasty and destructive.

I love nasty and destructive...but I don't normally shoot the best meat either.

 

[Maverick1]

Knock down power for the win!

 

[Choupique]

love nasty and destructive.

If i recall correctly, it was pretty disgusting.

 

[WKR]

Isn't the guy sponsored by leupold and barnes?
Its hard to be objective when you have to give good reviews to your sponsors else they stop cutting checks.

 

[mlevimadden]

I mean it was only like 10-15 years ago that Broz started showing terminal performance of the heavy 30 cal Bergers on elk. I feel like he was one of the first people on the western hunting forums showing the advantage of frangible bullets over monos for quicker kills and increased effective range to a large audience. That was like a 2-300 page megathread with like 50 dead elk in it that still wasn't enough to convince a lot of people. We are still very new to using target bullets for taking game and why there is still so pushback from the conventional wisdom.

 

[z987k]

I mean realistically the whole .223 thing boils down to a marginal improvement in accuracy due to reduced recoil. After all there is nothing the 77gr TMK does that the 105gr 6mm, 143gr 6.5mm, 175gr 7mm or 212gr 30 cal of similar construction can’t do as good if not better due to their larger mass and frontal area.

One of the reasons for going small for caliber, is because when a necropsy is done and it's asked what caliber bullet was this done with, no one can tell. You can't make something more dead.

 

[KenLee]

One of the reasons for going small for caliber, is because when a necropsy is done and it's asked what caliber bullet was this done with, no one can tell. You can't make something more dead.

Great for poachers

 

[roadrunner]

To see a popular pedestal Fudd get absolutely mutilated by a real shooter with in depth knowledge on a public platform...

Petty, really. Most "fudds" have better things to do anyway.

Like it even really matters...

 

[woods89]

I mean realistically the whole .223 thing boils down to a marginal improvement in accuracy due to reduced recoil. After all there is nothing the 77gr TMK does that the 105gr 6mm, 143gr 6.5mm, 175gr 7mm or 212gr 30 cal of similar construction can’t do as good if not better due to their larger mass and frontal area.

For me, if I'm prone in my yard, marginal improvement is probably correct. But where that changes is weird shooting positions and quick shots. I've been using a 223 for whitetails 50% or so of the time for the last few years, and what I'm finding is that I am nailing those awkward or quick shots to a level I was not achieving with my 6.5. I can only imagine the improvement if I was comparing it to something in the 30-06 recoil level or so.
YMMV, but I'm definitely seeing the difference myself.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I mean realistically the whole .223 thing boils down to a marginal improvement in accuracy due to reduced recoil. After all there is nothing the 77gr TMK does that the 105gr 6mm, 143gr 6.5mm, 175gr 7mm or 212gr 30 cal of similar construction can’t do as good if not better due to their larger mass and frontal area.

Using factory ammo and at the same DA, my 6 Creed shooting 108gr and my 6.5PRC shooting 143gr, both get outperformed at long range by my .224 22 Creedmoor shooting 80gr. I have to step up to my 7SAUM shooting hand loaded 175gr ELDX's to see a realistic down range killing ability increase (think from 800-900ish yard gun to 1,000-1,100ish yard gun). Food for thought.