Is it all Leopolds

[LongWayAround]

^understood.

I do believe that a large majority of the "never had an issue" crowd either couldn't diagnose it to begin with, or it doesn't matter for their use.

For example: I had a vortex with a wandering zero. I didn't know how to diagnose it at the time and just thought it was part of the deal. That scope would make a fine point-shoot scope for close range, but when dialed, the erector would occasionally reset with recoil.

The scope had issues, but one could easily overlook them if they didn't know or care.

 

[Marshfly]

^understood.

I do believe that a large majority of the "never had an issue" crowd either couldn't diagnose it to begin with, or it doesn't matter for their use.

For example: I had a vortex with a wandering zero. I didn't know how to diagnose it at the time and just thought it was part of the deal. That scope would make a fine point-shoot scope for close range, but when dialed, the erector would occasionally reset with recoil.

The scope had issues, but one could easily overlook them if they didn't know or care.

That's the real deal. How many times are you at the range watching someone chase single bullet holes around the target attempting to sight in?

Then you fire 11 shots pretty quickly and pack your stuff up and they look at you crazy asking "are you done already?"

 

[pacoalcracker]

Well, for all of the naysayers here who despise Leupold scopes they sure sell very well in the classifieds and dare I say just as fast as NF, SWFA, Vortex, and Trijicon. Perhaps the overwhelming number of members are not reading the drop test notes...or just disregarding it since they don't plan on throwing the rifle over the cliff or down the rockslide. Sure, I also own several NF scopes but you sure don't want a 20-30oz scope on a lightweight rig when a Leupold is more suitable for your needs, or you don't have a $20,000 hunt on the line that you saved for 10 years to do. In addition, not everyone has a budget for $1500-$2000+ scopes. There is a pretty wide latitude whereas a Leupold scope that has not given any trouble and holds zero fits in just fine

Like I said...Leupold's are just fine for most people and most hunting situations. Not everyone needs or wants the best, most expensive and heaviest scopes on the market. Use what fit's your need and budget. I read and understand the drop tests.....but it does not change my mind. Just as in any other tests done by a single entity, I take it with a grain of salt. We have all seen many and various tests done by a single entity before and then when done by a different entity the results were different, and sometimes quite different. Perhaps that is why second opinions are so valuable.

 

[hibernation]

How many times have guys sighted in and hunted through the season and then pulled there gun out prior to the next season and had to "re-zero"??

That was me, every year. I was always told that was normal, just part of the deal. In hindsight, I can't believe that I never stopped to think... if my zero is off before hunting season and needs adjustment, when did it shift? Sitting at home in a case for the off season, or sometime during the last hunt?

I wanted to get more serious about shooting a few years ago, took the standard hunter advice and bought a nice Leupold VX. Had the most frustrating experience with it, searched everywhere to see what I was doing wrong, eventually ended up finding the scope evals. Re-mounted it a few times, even sent it back to Leupold, they signed off that it was fine, but I couldn't ever get it to shoot consistently.

I put a known scope on the rifle and the issues all stopped. Shoot, measure, adjust, and that was pretty much it. I don't know if that makes me a convert, but it was pretty eye-opening seeing those results against all the usual fudd advice I'd been told over the years: tap the turrets, dial past and then come back to your adjustment, the first shot after an adjustment "settles" the turret, etc.

I'd take a good shooter and a "good" scope versus a nervous Nellie with a perfect scope any day of the week

For sure, but for myself, why not eliminate one variable? I'm working on being a good shooter and that takes time, but it's sure nice eliminating a major source of error and frustration during practice. Especially when it's not strictly about spending more money, some of the tested scopes are way more affordable than a comparable Leupold (or whatever else).

 

[pacoalcracker]

I just love how many experts we have here that think they are the shit! Thats why I come here daily....I need a good laugh.

 

[LongWayAround]

That was me, every year. I was always told that was normal, just part of the deal. In hindsight, I can't believe that I never stopped to think... if my zero is off before hunting season and needs adjustment, when did it shift? Sitting at home in a case for the off season, or sometime during the last hunt?

For me, the lightbulb came on a few years ago when I was at the range with a buddy. I was musing about why we have to adjust a few clicks at every range trips and he said something to the effect of "that's why we check, so you can adjust."

That comment, made me realize that I shouldn't have to expect to adjust. I have already done this. Why do it again, every time?

 

[BBob]

How many times are you at the range watching someone chase single bullet holes around the target attempting to sight in?

Not to conflate the conversation but new shooters or those that never really learned to shoot just might wander around the target and it’s not the scope or the rifle scope setup. I have seen this often when teaching with a known good rifle/scope. I’ve been working recently with a guy with this very thing. His zero wanders greatly (and group size) between sessions but I can sit down behind the rifle and shoot a nice small group right where it should be.

 

[NevadaMike]

That's not really what people are saying though. They're just saying you have a much higher chance of having issues with any given Leupold than you do something like a NF. Nightforce scopes will still occasionally have issues, just much more rarely. This is a frequency thing and I don't see why people have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept of averages.

"The men in Sweden are much taller than men in Laos"
"But I know a guy from Laos who's 6'7" tall!"

Anecdotes don't disprove claims about averages.

It certainly is. They're a hell of a lot of scope for the price for competition guns. And if the zero happens to wander a bit that's alright you can correct it before the competition starts at the zero range. And given how little abuse PRS scopes take that's kind of a minimal risk. For the right set of requirements they make a lot of sense.

Nightforce scopes do occasionally have issues just like any other scope. I know someone who broke a turret on an ATACR for instance. Out of curiosity, what was the Nightforce fail though? Did the scope have a zero shift or was it some other mechanical issue that popped up?

I do not know what the final cause was but the competitor said it fell over while it was leaned aginanst a tree. I have no idea what the surface was but I assume hard dirt. He had a zero shift both vertical and horizontal. He had just finished shooting for power factor so he was already at the range. Due to time constraints he just zeroed in and headed to his stage. It could have been rings, action screws so who knows.

As my last comment in the never ending debate I think many of us may not know the cause of a zero shift. If a scope is dropped in a jig and then measured on a professional collimator it's a pretty solid finding. If they are all tested the exact same way even better. Most have seen how Nightforce test every scope with the rubber pad and is immediately reverified in the collimator by the technician. If a hunter shoots 6 rounds a year says his scope failed to hold zero I have my doubts. If we pay attention to Form and Hornady's discussion on group size and throw in questionable ammunition from the hunter it is even more suspect. Nightforce definitely has its place and that is why it is on my 50 BMG. It is a tank with thicker tubes for a reason. For my 5 pound Seekins Element that I hope to not drop on its turret I'll take the weight and eye box of the VX-5. I have dropped it. If it lets me down I will come to Rokslide first and fess up but I have put more tough miles on it than most hunters do in shit conditions. I put a lot of stock in Form's discussion of the Maven 1.2 and its reticle so I bought 2 of them in the first drop. I am sure it will be solid as well and I took my Idaho elk with one of them and the other took an Alaska buck on a 6ARC smaller is better rifle I just put together.

 

[LongWayAround]

I just love how many experts we have here that think they are the shit! Thats why I come here daily....I need a good laugh.

That seems like a mischaracterization. The few who seem to have expert level experience never claim to be. Many people just share their experiences and trajectory, usually in a self-depredating lens.

 

[Choupique]

Mannnnnn, how i would so very love for the VX3i 2.5-8x36 to have passed the drop test. That's easily my favorite general purpose hunting scope. Super light, only about $400, great glass, made in America. There's so very much to like about it.

Mine have been great and I will keep using them as I have, but I was raised to be very delicate with my scopes. It was SOP my whole life to check zero any time your scope hit literally anything, and we'd often have to rezero, and we didn't think anything of it. Now that I know better, I feel like I've been getting cheated on since I was 8 years old.

Cmon leupold. Just make that one scope perfect for me. Make it hold zero. I'll buy 10 of them.

 

[Marshfly]

Not to conflate the conversation but new shooters or those that never really learned to shoot just might wander around the target and it’s not the scope or the rifle scope setup. I have seen this often when teaching with a known good rifle/scope. I’ve been working recently with a guy with this very thing. His zero wanders greatly (and group size) between sessions but I can sit down behind the rifle and shoot a nice small group right where it should be.

What's the excuse for the guys using lead sleds?

My 10yo that's hardly ever shot can hold a decent zero. Every single person I have brought new to the range can. These people I am watching are on benches, with front and rear support. They aren't shooting by braille. These are guys that call themselves hunters.

 

[Drenalin]

...or just disregarding it since they don't plan on throwing the rifle over the cliff or down the rockslide.

I read and understand the drop tests...

The first statement quoted disproves the second.

I don’t have any comment on Leupold; I’ve never owned or used one, and don’t much care whether anyone else does or not.

 

[Shortschaf]

my experience with mk5's leads me to believe they are not the exception in Leupold-toughness and are just as prone to wandering zeros.
I experienced both while owning.

Rather than performing a root cause analysis on what failed (rings, base, or scope), I sold the scope.

My personal scope budget is around $1200, so to me there is no point in considering Leupold with the other options out there

 

[Choupique]

What's the excuse for the guys using lead sleds?

Funny you bring that up. I had to single handedly get them to disappear in my circle of friends. They were amazed that I could often shoot their magnum better off bags than they could out of the sled. I knew all along that was horrible for the scope and the stock, and was likely jiggling the zero around. That was well before I discovered the slide and knew that there were scopes out there that could actually take a hit and not move.

 

[Reburn]

The first statement quoted disproves the second.

I don’t have any comment on Leupold; I’ve never owned or used one, and don’t much care whether anyone else does or not.

This is the same guy that bends bars in the gym thread. That thread is good for a laugh too.

 

[Drenalin]

This is the same guy that bends bars in the gym thread. That thread is good for a laugh too.

Shit, I’ll be careful then.

 

[bmart2622]

This is the same guy that bends bars in the gym thread. That thread is good for a laugh too.

Im going to need some info on where to find this thread

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

The scope drop threads are gold

One can waste a lot of time there.

 

[JohnJohnson]

As my last comment in the never ending debate I think many of us may not know the cause of a zero shift.

Depending on factors such as scope base, stock bedding, scope rings, etc that's correct. Though usually if those are checked and eliminated we can take some guesses. Like for instance that guy's rifle (if it's a PRS rifle) probably had an integral rail on it so there's one variable accounted for.

I do not know what the final cause was but the competitor said it fell over while it was leaned aginanst a tree. I have no idea what the surface was but I assume hard dirt. He had a zero shift both vertical and horizontal. He had just finished shooting for power factor so he was already at the range. Due to time constraints he just zeroed in and headed to his stage. It could have been rings, action screws so who knows.

I wonder if it was a possible impact to the barrel, depending on his stock/chassis situation. Something top PRS guys do is bed their chassis for instance. Not because of any precision gains but because it makes it more resistant to zero shift after an impact to the barrel. Phil Cashin (owner of MPA) has talked a fair bit about how bedding chassis helps a lot for zero retention. Which makes sense since MPA chassis are particularly susceptible to zero shift from barrel impacts. Guys like Morgan Lamprecht have even started testing their setups by smacking the barrel with a rubber mallet to see if it causes zero shift. Bedding helps a lot for basically everything except a Foundation.

 

[BBob]

What's the excuse for the guys using lead sleds?

My 10yo that's hardly ever shot can hold a decent zero. Every single person I have brought new to the range can. These people I am watching are on benches, with front and rear support. They aren't shooting by braille. These are guys that call themselves hunters.

No idea on the led sled. I’m just saying that not all new shooters are like your 10 year old. Many can’t shoot straight right out of the gate. With a little help they all learn fairly quickly but not all are the equal of your child.