Is it all Leopolds

[Nards444]

This poll has a pile of responses. Based on the poll, about 60% of respondants have had a leupold scope lose zero, while about 30% have had theirs hold zero. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/leupold-zero-retention-poll.347901/


The “cult” on both sides of the issue is simply those that get worked up because they put all this effort into their equipment, and either had it let them down, or choose to defend the decisions theyve made. People get butthurt arguing about cars, guns, fishing rods, tools, etc. Yawn.

The cost to me of choosing a trijicon over a leupold is approximately zero, so Im taking my chances there having had 3 out of my 4 leupolds repeatedly lose zero by over 1.5 moa, as confirmed by leupold warranty. I guess that makes me a cult member? Whatever.

Thanks. Yeah I’m in the car forums and it’s same banter. Sometimes hard to just find truth in any of it.

This poll has a pile of responses. Based on the poll, about 60% of respondants have had a leupold scope lose zero, while about 30% have had theirs hold zero. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/leupold-zero-retention-poll.347901/


The “cult” on both sides of the issue is simply those that get worked up because they put all this effort into their equipment, and either had it let them down, or choose to defend the decisions theyve made. People get butthurt arguing about cars, guns, fishing rods, tools, etc. Yawn.

The cost to me of choosing a trijicon over a leupold is approximately zero, so Im taking my chances there having had 3 out of my 4 leupolds repeatedly lose zero by over 1.5 moa, as confirmed by leupold warranty. I guess that makes me a cult member? Whatever.

Yeah I’m the in car forums as well and it’s the same banter. Hard to read between the lines. One thing about online though is like anything else you almost always see all the complaints for x truck or car and here scopes. None of the good ever.

I have Seen that poll as well but we’re talking maybe 150 people in that poll vs millions of scopes sold, that poll does nothing but prove there is a standard deviation from the norm which is expected in Any product. Take any product and x will be faulty. Question is, is leupold better or worse then any other brand. When we talk data, the set matters. I would guess leupold probably sells more scopes then them all combined in this thread, which will mean more failures.

With that said I’m looking at trijicon as well and might get that

 

[Flyjunky]

I have. Seen that poll as well but we’re talking maybe 150 people in that polll vs millions of scopes sold, that poll does nothing by prove there is a standard deviation from the norm which is expected in. Any product. Take any product and x will be faulty. Question is, is leupold better or worse then any other brand. When we talk data, the set matters. I would guess leupold probably sells more scopes then them all combined in this thread, which will mean more failures.

With that said I’m looking at trijicon as well and might get that

Here’s the problem though. How many of those millions are capable shooters to even detect a change in zero? How many of those millions are actually having to zero a rifle every year and just consider it a normal routine that it has to be adjusted from last year?

Capable shooters with capable gear are finding Leupolds to lose zero more often than standard deviation.

 

[Nards444]

Here’s the problem though. How many of those millions are capable shooters to even detect a change in zero? How many of those millions are actually having to zero a rifle every year and just consider it a normal routine that it has to be adjusted from last year?

Capable shooters with capable gear are finding Leupolds to lose zero more often than standard deviation.

That’s a good point and it’s valid. Overall it’s still a very small sample of the pros saying they identified an issue. And yeah I’m sure a lot of guys would never have a clue you are right. Still going to say it’s hard to draw some real conclusions, I wasn’t there, was it the ammo, skill, mounts list goes on.

While it’s valuable to get some of this information and helps making an informed decision. And while I’m not discrediting what anybody says. 150 people and a guy drop tests a scope a few times, I just can’t find the gospel in it

 

[Macintosh]

Thanks. Yeah I’m in the car forums and it’s same banter. Sometimes hard to just find truth in any of it.


Yeah I’m the in car forums as well and it’s the same banter. Hard to read between the lines. One thing about online though is like anything else you almost always see all the complaints for x truck or car and here scopes. None of the good ever.

I have Seen that poll as well but we’re talking maybe 150 people in that poll vs millions of scopes sold, that poll does nothing but prove there is a standard deviation from the norm which is expected in Any product. Take any product and x will be faulty. Question is, is leupold better or worse then any other brand. When we talk data, the set matters. I would guess leupold probably sells more scopes then them all combined in this thread, which will mean more failures.

Entirely true that leupold sells more scopes, and that you can find what you want online, but thats not what a poll like that says. If the poll’s only choice was “raise your hand if your leupy lost zero”, then yes, you’d expect to see a higher # of complaints simply given a higher number of scopes in the market. If that was what the poll was then yes, without “success” data it would tell you nothing more than that leupold sells a lot of scopes. But the poll’s choices DO show success data, at a ratio of two votes for failures for each vote for success. As a ratio it’s irrelevant how many scopes we’re talking about IF the 150 respondents represent a representative sample of leupold customers. That’s whats in question, is whether the 150 people who responded is proportionally representative of what YOU will experience. Maybe, maybe not. Whether it correlates with your personal experience after legitimately checking, as well as the objective info you have access to, thats different too.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

You can miss without the cause being a zero shift or a mechanical issue with the scope at all. Did he check and see a zero shift, and rule out the base/rings/stock? Or did he just get excited and miss?

That's true enough. Plus their reputation for reliability has allowed them to be complacent on their ATACR line especially. Low power tunneling in all of them except the 4-16, a clunky zero-stop system, the rotating eyepiece for magnification change, and image quality that varies from the 7-35 being excellent to the 5-25 being noticeably worse and others being in between. But until someone matches their durability it's kind of a moot point.

I wouldn’t call it a moot point. If you can’t see your target, it’s hard to hit it. Where do we draw the line on accepting unacceptable quality at price points?

One reason I’m sticking with Leupold on my main rifle is the clarity and eye box.

One reason I sold swfa is the murkiness of the glass.

One reason I got rid of my NF is the cluttered recticle.

However I love my nx8 and I want to see other nx8 lines than my 1-8.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

What someone that cares more than me needs to do, is find a hard number for data.

How many scopes are sold divided by how many fail to hold zero.

That data will determine if x is more reliable than y.
Until then we have information to consider but to call it a fact is actually an opinion.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Entirely true that leupold sells more scopes, and that you can find what you want online, but thats not what a poll like that says. If the poll’s only choice was “raise your hand if your leupy lost zero”, then yes, you’d expect to see a higher # of complaints simply given a higher number of scopes in the market. If that was what the poll was then yes, without “success” data it would tell you nothing more than that leupold sells a lot of scopes. But the poll’s choices DO show success data, at a ratio of two votes for failures for each vote for success. As a ratio it’s irrelevant how many scopes we’re talking about IF the 150 respondents represent a representative sample of leupold customers. That’s whats in question, is whether the 150 people who responded is proportionally representative of what YOU will experience. Maybe, maybe not. Whether it correlates with your personal experience after legitimately checking, as well as the objective info you have access to, thats different too.

And there is really no way to confirm if the poll respondents are being truthful or just part of their cult.

 

[Formidilosus]

What someone that cares more than me needs to do, is find a hard number for data.

How many scopes are sold divided by how many fail to hold zero.

That data will determine if x is more reliable than y.
Until then we have information to consider but to call it a fact is actually an opinion.

Thats not required, and is not how that works. If you want to find out what the “best” is- say the diffence in 1% or 2%, then yes you will need a rather large sample size and rigerious testing. However, if you just want to find which is most likely to fail at a relatively low level, you don’t.
Holding zero is the most basic function of an aiming device. It does not take very many samples failing to know that there is a mechanical issue with a scope make/model. Just like you don’t have to crash test many samples of a car if a 30mph impact causes the motor to end up touching the back seats- one or two and you know that there is a base mechanical and design issue with all of them.

If you have 10 people randomly in a room and half of them have had Leupold repair failed erectors on scopes- it’s a very good indication that there is probably something wrong. Likewise, when those same 10 random people have had no, or one time NF repaired a scope, it’s probably a good indication that they are less failure prone. Of course this is a generalization and use cases certainly factor in.

 

[Macintosh]

And there is really no way to confirm if the poll respondents are being truthful or just part of their cult.

Exactly. I personally dont think 150 people are lying, ie not “being truthful”. So we are left with the imperfect info we have. Personally, my experience consistently aligns with both the drop tests and the poll. The fact that those three things all align makes my personal decision easy. If you have personal experience that doesnt align with the other info, well, its up to you to decide what the risks and rewards are and ultimately what to do with it, obviously that wont be as clear.

Of course, anyone that really has a problem with all this is also welcome to start their own counter-cult by showing that their leupold scope holds zero under harsh use by showcasing their own check using a transparent methodology. After all, talk minus action=zilch.

 

[Macintosh]

If you have 10 people randomly in a room and half of them have had Leupold repair failed erectors on scopes- it’s a very good indication that there is probably something wrong….

Is this “truthful” enough?

 

[z987k]

I bought that vx3hd 2.5-8 for my barret fieldcraft. It’s still sitting in the box. Why?! The drop test results I read about here.

I love my leupolds as much as the tikka cult loves their tikkas.

Yet I haven’t put that 2.5-8 on my rifle yet.

Instead we put the vx6 on it and replaced the 2.5lb NF that I bought it with.

But I’m looking for something else for that rifle. I just want a lighter scope.

We ain’t shooting 800yds. We don’t want to shoot longer than 300 with it and ideally we shoot 100 or less.

The trijicon accupoint 3-9's are really light and that brand seems to have a good reputation. Most of the reticles are crap, but if a standard duplex or a simple mil dot work for you, it might be a good option.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Thats not required, and is not how that works. If you want to find out what the “best” is- say the diffence in 1% or 2%, then yes you will need a rather large sample size and rigerious testing. However, if you just want to find which is most likely to fail at a relatively low level, you don’t.
Holding zero is the most basic function of an aiming device. It does not take very many samples failing to know that there is a mechanical issue with a scope make/model. Just like you don’t have to crash test many samples of a car if a 30mph impact causes the motor to end up touching the back seats- one or two and you know that there is a base mechanical and design issue with all of them.

If you have 10 people randomly in a room and half of them have had Leupold repair failed erectors on scopes- it’s a very good indication that there is probably something wrong. Likewise, when those same 10 random people have had no, or one time NF repaired a scope, it’s probably a good indication that they are less failure prone. Of course this is a generalization and use cases certainly factor in.

According to this is there is more than one failure there is an issue. Data matters.

 

[z987k]

There isn’t one. I just need one

Riflescopes - Hunting - 8x56 Klassik

www.schmidtundbender.de

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Riflescopes - Hunting - 8x56 Klassik

www.schmidtundbender.de

No FFP MIL hunting reticle.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Exactly. I personally dont think 150 people are lying, ie not “being truthful”. So we are left with the imperfect info we have. Personally, my experience consistently aligns with both the drop tests and the poll. The fact that those three things all align makes my personal decision easy. If you have personal experience that doesnt align with the other info, well, its up to you to decide what the risks and rewards are and ultimately what to do with it, obviously that wont be as clear.

Of course, anyone that really has a problem with all this is also welcome to start their own counter-cult by showing that their leupold scope holds zero under harsh use by showcasing their own check using a transparent methodology. After all, talk minus action=zilch.

Yes. That’s why I said their cult. When you blindly follow something you are part of their cult.

Leupold hater cult.
Leupolds never fail cult.

They are both cults.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

The trijicon accupoint 3-9's are really light and that brand seems to have a good reputation. Most of the reticles are crap, but if a standard duplex or a simple mil dot work for you, it might be a good option.

I don’t mind simple duplex reticle.

I almost bought one of these a few months ago, but the guy wanted to charge me $50 to ship it.

My next trip to the city, I’m hoping to look through one. Clarity matters to me.

 

[z987k]

No FFP MIL hunting reticle.

Ah, ya reticles matter. But, there's no such thing as a FFP, or SFP fixed power scope.

 

[Nards444]

Entirely true that leupold sells more scopes, and that you can find what you want online, but thats not what a poll like that says. If the poll’s only choice was “raise your hand if your leupy lost zero”, then yes, you’d expect to see a higher # of complaints simply given a higher number of scopes in the market. If that was what the poll was then yes, without “success” data it would tell you nothing more than that leupold sells a lot of scopes. But the poll’s choices DO show success data, at a ratio of two votes for failures for each vote for success. As a ratio it’s irrelevant how many scopes we’re talking about IF the 150 respondents represent a representative sample of leupold customers. That’s whats in question, is whether the 150 people who responded is proportionally representative of what YOU will experience. Maybe, maybe not. Whether it correlates with your personal experience after legitimately checking, as well as the objective info you have access to, thats different too.

I’m no math wiz, but sample size matters. 256 total votes is clearly not enough of a sample size. The margin of error on that poll would be massive. The other issue is it doesn’t compare against other brands.

Its not nearly enough to make an informed decision, at those numbers it’s an opinion.

 

[Nards444]

According to this is there is more than one failure there is an issue. Data matters.

Just shows there’s an issue but doesn’t show the depth of the issue. We also don’t know models were they low end or high end. Every item that rolls down a production line will have defects, and typically there’s an acceptable number or percent when you mass produce anything. That poll doesn’t show or prove that leupolds defect rate is higher then it should be or high compared to others.

Btw I’ve never owned anything leupold and still don’t. Just looking.

 

[JackButler]

I’ve never had a leupold that kept zero. Always a little off. Not enough to miss at 200 yards, but always off. None would hold zero on any sort of impact. I’d wager most guys who say “mine has never lost zero” shoot a box of ammo a year and call it good and don’t kill much beyond 200 yards. They almost certainly never track it.

I’ve been running mark 4’s over 20 years with no issues at all to 1200 yards. Worked ok for military snipers as well. But they don’t hold zero. Right.