Idaho proposed special season open sight centerfire

[HunterGatherer]

No- that’s exactly the point. When archery seasons were allowed in almost all the states, it was precisely because there were so few archers relative, and their success rates were so abysmally low that giving them a season did not have any material effect on the herd or animal take. That is now not remotely true. It is the same for muzzleloaders.





Yes actually. They are beyond the intended purpose when those seasons were established.




So nearly twice? And, that isn’t reliable true side by side. People that use traditional bows are by and large dedicated to some level to it, which is not the same for compounds. So you are seeing a wide population (including extremely low skill) have nearly twice the kill rate of a small population that by and large are dedicated to the traditional bow.

Compounds are drastically more efficient at killing than traditional bows- saying they aren’t is being purposely deceitful.





That’s not true across the board. It depends on species and terrain, and seasons. A few years ago this very topic came up on here, and I showed quite a few units where rifle and archery were neck and neck on elk kill numbers.




Sure- but doing so while not addressing that a crap ton of animals are being killed in “special” seasons that were allowed because they weren’t going to kill any real numbers of animals- also needs to be addressed. Bow hunters aren’t any more special than rifles hunters in this.




In the west that is relatively few, and most that are, were very recent.




Why do cross bows get regulated out of archery, but massive technological advancements in mechanical bows doesn’t?


Keep in mind/ I teach courses that are dedicated to modern, optimum rifles and equipment, and it is purposefully to make hunters more lethal. Technology needs to be heavily curtailed- the only difference is that I am being intellectually honest and willing to put “my thing” on the table; I just want the other communities to do so as well.

So your argument is what ? That all archery seasons should be trad only ? Put a stick bow in the hands of every bow hunter and it won’t fix anything.

Success rate is only a minor consideration anyway as compared to total harvest. Look at the numbers for unit 39 for example. The rifle harvest is 14 times what the archery harvest is. So if you cut the archery harvest in half by making everyone shoot a stick bow you save about 60 deer. If you cut the rifle harvest in half it’s 900 deer saved .

Are we trying to affect the actual harvest or just trying to make sure everyone gets a handicap just because ?

 

[wind gypsy]

Vets was just an example, not a special category of privilege. I'm talking about broken and old bodies in this context. It simply strikes me as deeply morally wrong for there to be so many weapon/tech restrictions that some old f*cker, a wrecked dude, or 12yo girl is forced to have a much higher level of stalking and physical stamina skillsets to be successful. Again, these restricted tech seasons only serve to advantage already skilled, fit, and dedicated hunters. This shouldn't be a game of worthiness.

Kids already get special seasons, special tag odds, etc etc. How easy do we need to make it for them? How many of us adults needed special gifts to be able to get interested in hunting? Kids who are going to be hunters dont need participation trophy punched tags.

 

[SDHNTR]

I don’t understand the complaints about archery. These comments must be from people who don’t actually bow hunt. The difference between effective range of trad archery and compound archery is only 20-30 yds, depending on the shooter. The advancements in compound technology account for about another 20 yds increase in effective range in, say from 40yds to 60yds. Do people really think that is a major shift in tech that leads to overharvest ? The success rates for archery tags would suggest otherwise. The 100yd archery kill is still extremely uncommon. It seems common because when it happens there’s so much talk about it.

Agree completely. This is 1000 yard argument, not a 100 yard (or less) argument!

 

[idelkslayer]

I think it is good to add open-sight rifles as a category of weapon in Idaho code so that IDFG has that as an option in the future. However, I don't think we actually need that kind of restriction right now.

Last year I put up this graph showing how success rates have changed for different weapons over time for elk hunting but it seems reasonable that it would apply to mule deer hunting as well. I researched the statistics from 2001 to 2023 and found that average hunter days for each weapon type increased by about 1 day. Year to year success varies a lot and seems to follow herd numbers and the effects of hard winters but generally all trend upwards. I concluded that increased effort (hunter days) was minor enough that it doesn't explain the increase in success. The increase in success appears to be technology based.

Which makes the small increase in rifle success a bit of a puzzle, especially when compared the dramatic increase in archery and muzzleloader success. After all, there has been a lot of advancement in rifle hunting technology. I can only conclude that the success rate hasn't changed much due to the fact that the vast majority of hunters are not like us. They are not practicing and shooting competently. They shoot a couple rounds at a pie plate at 100 yards and call it good. Despite that I do think an open-sight restriction would reduce rifle success.

Last year

 

[Customweld]

So your argument is what ? That all archery seasons should be trad only ? Put a stick bow in the hands of every bow hunter and it won’t fix anything.

Success rate is only a minor consideration anyway as compared to total harvest. Look at the numbers for unit 39 for example. The rifle harvest is 14 times what the archery harvest is. So if you cut the archery harvest in half by making everyone shoot a stick bow you save about 60 deer. If you cut the rifle harvest in half it’s 900 deer saved .

Are we trying to affect the actual harvest or just trying to make sure everyone gets a handicap just because ?


View attachment 976955

If you are going to use a unit for comparison, use one that has an otc archery rut hunt.
The percentages aren't that different. I was stuck on elk. Disregard.

 

[Formidilosus]

Which makes the small increase in rifle success a bit of a puzzle,

It shouldn’t. The general trend is that there are less opportunities, less animals, less open land, more competition with dedicated hunters- and yet the success rates are the same or slightly elevated. That is technology at play. For all of those reasons, if technology didn’t make rifle killing easier for the masses, success rates would be drastically down. But they aren’t.

 

[IdahoBeav]

Unit 39 does have OTC archery during the rut.

 

[Customweld]

Unit 39 does have OTC archery during the rut.

My mistake, for some reason I was stuck on elk.

 

[IdahoBeav]

However, Customweld is right about success rates of September archery and Oct/Nov rifle being about the same for OTC elk.

 

[WRO]

Unit 39 does have OTC archery during the rut.

It’s easier to kill deer during august and September with a bow than during the rut IMHO. (Archery only for discussion)

 

[2531usmc]

False choice here.

Having more tag types across shorter seasons limits success rates, while also giving more opportunities for guys to land a tag.

Completely eliminating the modern rifle season though, it's an absolute no-go for me - damn near at the same level as gun control itself. It's not right, to the point of immorality, to completely eliminate the ability for me, my 12yo daughter, or my 75yo dad, to hunt with the weapon that gives them the best chance of success.

I read about of the people here on rokslide that are killing deer and elk at 600 and 700 yards and even further. Clearly, advantages in rifles and aiming/sighting systems are driving a quantum leap in lethality.

Game managers have to compensate somehow and reverting back to primitive weapons and modern weapons w/iron sights would be a reasonable compromise

In addition, the biggest advantage in transitioning to iron sights is that we lower the number of people on rokslide complaining about Leupold scopes

 

[idelkslayer]

It shouldn’t. The general trend is that there are less opportunities, less animals, less open land, more competition with dedicated hunters- and yet the success rates are the same or slightly elevated. That is technology at play. For all of those reasons, if technology didn’t make rifle killing easier for the masses, success rates would be drastically down. But they aren’t.

And that is a very valid explanation.

 

[RockAndSage]

Kids already get special seasons, special tag odds, etc etc. How easy do we need to make it for them? How many of us adults needed special gifts to be able to get interested in hunting? Kids who are going to be hunters dont need participation trophy punched tags.

I'm pretty certain you didn't do this on purpose, but it's been bizarre watching my words get warped and twisted across this thread to the point where this is what someone would pick up - that I'm somehow arguing for special, privileged seasons. It's the exact opposite - just leave people TF alone to hunt how they have been with common modern weapons, and anyone wanting additional tags/seasons for restricted tech can be left TF alone to voluntarily pursue those. Leave the ALW category alone. The young, the old, and the broken can keep doing what they've been doing - that's my point about those types of people. Leave them TF alone.

 

[Slickhill]

I do not hunt either of the states in question so I’m not likely to be directly affected any time soon one way or another.

But I’ve often thought of something similar, even to the point of trying to find out how to get in touch with the right people on my state wildlife commission that is in charge of rule making to possibly discuss similar ideas.

In my state, which is primarily a whitetail deer state. We do have huntable populations of mule deer and elk but they are outside the scope in this case. There is an ever more vocal proponent group railing to end the rut rifle hunt and make us a one buck per year state. We’ll have giants like KS they say.

I would much rather see tech limited and opportunity stay as it is now. Get rid of crossbows, any muzzleloader that Jeremiah Johnson wouldn’t recognize, corn feeders, trail cams, LRFs.

The department here has long stated that they are about opportunity. If opportunity comes with some challenges I’m good with that as long as the opportunity remains.

My Grandfather hunted his last two seasons with an aperture sight and post front on his rifle. Glaucoma and Macular degeneration made looking through a scope impossible but he could still manage to utilize a peep with an effective range of about 75 yards. Maybe a rare case of circumstance but if an 87 year old dude can do it and accept the limitations surely more able bodies could. You wouldn’t know if that big buck happened to walk by 30 yards from the spot where you usually sit if you were on the couch because you couldn’t get a tag.

I can say with certainty that if the unit I hunt in CO said hey if we go to irons only you can get a buck tag every year instead of every 3rd or 4th year I would be more than happy to drag one of my peep sighted rifles out and hunt deer every year.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I do not hunt either of the states in question

Either of them? Is there two different states of Idaho?

 

[Slickhill]

I was referring to Idaho and Utah having been referenced. My mistake

 

[swopie]

I didn’t read all eleven pages. Comments for this were open in October, I hope all of you that have pros or cons spoke up then. Not that they listen but at least opinions were voiced.

 

[2531usmc]

If you ban rangefinders, things will change significantly.

We’ll have the rangefinder police check everyone for compliance!

 

[Rock’N Tacos]

I know Idaho Mule deer and elk populations have struggled the last several years. It would be interesting to apply this across the board for a couple years and see if we can get them to bounce back. I purposely haven’t picked up a mule deer tag the last few years because of the bad winter they had a couple years ago.

I am not opposed to open sights. It would force guys to have to actually hunt and learn to stalk in close instead of taking 700 yard shots across a canyon (which I am guilty of having killed several animals between 500-1000 yards).

 

[bowhuntercoop]

If they offered a trad only unit I would be all about it! Switching to full time trad 5 years ago taught me a ton about animal behavior, how to really get close to critters sub 25-30 yards to kill em, and made me really realize how lazy most guys are when it comes to hunting.

How anyone could get enjoyment outta shooting a critter at 300-600-900 yards is mind boggling to me.

My kids are young. They all have stick bows. If they wanna kill deer with a stick bow it’s gunna take hard work on their part.

If they wanna compound hunt to break the ice that’s fine to, heck they can rifle hunt for all I care to get them into the sport.

I’m all about more time in the woods, hunting and teaching them woodsmanship. Once they have the fundamentals of woodsmanship, animal behaviors and actually learn how to hunt then the killing will come second nature.

I wish more states would go to harder ways to kill critters. Make guys actually work for it instead of punching a trigger hundreds of yards away.