Ice/snow comparison between rifles

[grfox92]

No, Americans generally shoot ok from a bench, but are compromised in nearly every other area.

What issues do you know of with the Ruger Americans?

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[Formidilosus]

What issues do you know of with the Ruger Americans?

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Overall longevity with high round counts, stocks so flexible that no matter how much material you remove you still get barrel contact, trigger reliability in adverse conditions, and small parts breakage. They shoot ok from a bench, but they are cheap rifles- not just inexpensive.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Fantastic thread. Thanks for the hard work to create it @Formidilosus


really makes me think a rifle cover that covers the action is needed for these kinds of conditions. I have one, but get a little lazy about carrying it. I had a scope cover and taped my barrel for my coldest hunt this year. Conditions were cold and I had 1-3 feet f snow. I took a tumble that put a lot of snow in the action and probably didn’t think enough about how that cold have impacted function. Fortunately, the CO elk were kind enough to prevent me from having to take a shot, so it wasn’t an issue of concern.

 

[Southern Lights]

Sako TRG and Blaser fan here. I have run them a lot.

At one shoot we had a snow storm and my TRG and another AI were the only rifles that ran reliably. The 700s had action problems or water getting into the safety/trigger group causing trouble.

The TRG's bolt is designed to run dry when in freezing conditions and the TRG manual specifically advises to only keep locking surfaces lightly lubed in freezing weather. I use CLP as it won't freeze at any reasonable temp. I do not use grease on my rifles as my experience is it can cause trouble even in mild freezing weather as it gets gummy and binds up moving parts.

The TRG bolt lugs are angled so that it's hard for snow/debris to collect in the locking area. The 700 bolts are flat sided and front/rear flat sided. This tends to pack in snow and ice if it gets in the action vs. the TRG that tends to not let it collect. The TRG also has a closed action on top so this limits entry of debris/water. The Tikka has this also which makes the action stronger/stiffer as a bonus which is one reason why the Sako/Tikkas are so accurate. The actions are very strong.

The angled lugs on the TRG are taken over to the Tikka (they use two lugs vs. three on TRG/Sako). But same thing applies and is very reliable in the Tikka.

I never poured water into the action and froze it so I can't comment. I'd try to pack the action with snow and see how they run. Or to cover with snow and then shoot them to warm them up to melt the snow, then let them re-freeze to see how the water gets into things. Or finally to have them in the cold, then bring them into a warm cabin, then back out to freeze again which would simulate what many would do on a hunt (although myself I leave my rifle in the cold to prevent trouble of freeze/thaw/freeze).

It is relatively easy to drop the TRG trigger group if needed to put into your jacket to thaw it if it was frozen. If you do this, you MUST remove the bolt before putting the trigger group back in or you will damage the sear. If you drop the trigger group and remove the bolt I would suspect most malfunctions can be cleared quickly or at least could be thawed quickly with just jacket warmth with these two components.

I have had an ice blob form on the back of the TRG bolt and this will cause the firing pin to light strike. The rear of the striker protrudes from the bolt shroud to show it is cocked. If ice is there the spring will break it free, but again light strike may happen.

I have heard older TRGs breaking bolt handles, but again usually from pretty bad abuse beating on them. The handles are screwed into the rear of the bolt and I consider it a weak point in the design. I actually think the modern Tikka/Sako with dovetail handle attachment is much stronger. Of course older Tikka/Sako are milled from a single bar of steel so there is no way for the handle to break unless you are using it to jack up your car.

I have not run the Blaser in really bad freezing temps, but have not heard of any issues from others I know that run them in those conditions. I have used the R8 Tahr hunting, etc. and it is very cold mornings/snow and bolts work fine, etc. But again I would avoid dousing the innards with lube. I use it in wet weather and water ingress is not something I've seen into the action. Just in general there is less chance for trouble to enter, but the R8 bolt is considerably more complicated than a Tikka bolt (the R8 bolt is basically also the trigger sear, etc.). Although I trust the R8, I wouldn't go out of my way to throw water into the bolt shroud as it's very likely it would ice up and not work either.

Although the bolt on the R8 keeps out tons of debris, there is a small chance I suppose that water could get into the safety de-cocker and cause trouble. I have again not poured water into it to test, this is just my opinion shooting them a lot. The tolerances in the Blaser bolt head is also very tight and I wouldn't want to get ice into it. I feel the splines would not engage to the locking recess or the bolt head shroud would possibly freeze and not work correctly. But, this is just a guess knowing at how it works. But again, this assumes you did all this with the bolt open and unlocked to allow water/debris to enter. If it is shut up tight then risk of this happening is considerably lower.

The trigger on the Blaser itself has no springs (desmodromic) so in theory more reliable in cold/frost conditions than those that have springs.

Again with all that said, I read a review in Swedish I believe and they froze many rifles and shot them and the Blaser worked the best if I recall.

In general, if I'm in bad weather I try to keep my rifles covered to not tempt fate. But with that said, I think some designs are better than others and generally agree with Forms observations.

 

[Latebloomer]

Interesting. I’d be curious if an AI would do the same. I’d imagine likely even with the bolt design.

 

[eoperator]

I have a few thunderbird long range scope/action covers, they have a great idea but sizing/materials need to be refined a bit. I wish this design would be picked up by a company with the resources to optimize it.

 

[grfox92]

Overall longevity with high round counts, stocks so flexible that no matter how much material you remove you still get barrel contact, trigger reliability in adverse conditions, and small parts breakage. They shoot ok from a bench, but they are cheap rifles- not just inexpensive.

Interesting. If a guy was on a tight budget and would only shoot a couple hundred rounds a year, would you go with a Savage Axis or the Ruger?

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[CBB1]

This can’t be the first you’ve heard of this issue! My goodness, it’s been all over mainstream media even!

I had heard of the issues but thought they were addressed by updated triggers. When I found this forum I believed that a 700 with a Leupold scope was a great combination. There is a lot here I’m learning and trying to decipher the wheat from the chaff.


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[ElPollo]

I would like to see how the SIG Cross compares on this test. I would expect the covered ejection port to help, but am not sure how the trigger would hold up.

 

[nobody]

Interesting. If a guy was on a tight budget and would only shoot a couple hundred rounds a year, would you go with a Savage Axis or the Ruger?

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Secret Option #3, a Tikka.

The Salvage Axis rifles are garbage. Horrible fit and finish, trigger group play, clunky and loose fitting parts, play in the freaking bolt handle and assembly on every one I've handled. Nope, I'll just club the animal to death with a stick, thank you very much.

My primary hunting rifle for awhile was a Ruger American Predator. I got it in college before I knew better, back when they retailed for the same money as the Salvage rifles. The Ruger is a better finished rifle, IMO, and known to shoot well from a bench (mine would put any variety of 130+ grain factory load into MOA or better). But the more I used it, the sloppier the trigger got and the grittier it became. The safety has got some play as well. I've put probably 5k rounds through it and the barrel is toast (last time I chronoed it, I had lost almost 350 FPS on my velocity with the same known load through the rifle), but it just sits in the back of my safe now.

When you could pick them up for $350, they were an ok value. But now, at $500-$550 (depending on vendor), I would save an extra +/-$100 up and buy the blued Tikka. An individual will be lightyears ahead. It might require eating out for lunch less or waiting and being patient while you save (GASP! You mean you can't have instant gratification 100% of the time?!?!?!), but it's unquestionably a superior long term solution.

 

[BjornF16]

StHealthy has a 3 piece set to cover/protect buttstock, action/scope, and muzzle. Using all 3 would add nearly 1lb to your setup

StHealthy Hunter 3-Piece Rifle Cover

StHealthy Hunter 3-Piece Rifle Cover Description GOHUNT Highlights Lightweight, yet tough design to protect your rifle in any conditions 3 piece system allows you to cover the scope and barrel with the ability to add or remove a buttstock cover Creates a fully enclosed cover for your scope so no...

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[prm]

The issues with 700 triggers go back 5 decades, are well documented in court cases, and it’s not about freezing up. It’s about them not being drop safe and going off when they aren’t supposed to. One of my good friends almost killed his father when they were hunting together with a 700. I really don’t understand why this design remains so popular. My friend and his dad are both still Rem 700 devotees.

I read about this years ago and thought it had to be exaggerated. Was in a gun shop shortly thereafter and they a rack of used rifles including a 700. I closed the bolt, engaged the safety and dropped in on the butt from maybe 6”. The trigger went off! I couldn't believe that was possible. That was the only data point I needed to never, ever, consider owning one.

 

[grfox92]

I read about this years ago and thought it had to be exaggerated. Was in a gun shop shortly thereafter and they a rack of used rifles including a 700. I closed the bolt, engaged the safety and dropped in on the butt from maybe 6”. The trigger went off! I couldn't believe that was possible. That was the only data point I needed to never, ever, consider owning one.

I saw a video of either marines or army snipers load a round in the chamber and litterally just tap on the side of the bold and the gun went off.

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[grfox92]

Secret Option #3, a Tikka.

The Salvage Axis rifles are garbage. Horrible fit and finish, trigger group play, clunky and loose fitting parts, play in the freaking bolt handle and assembly on every one I've handled. Nope, I'll just club the animal to death with a stick, thank you very much.

My primary hunting rifle for awhile was a Ruger American Predator. I got it in college before I knew better, back when they retailed for the same money as the Salvage rifles. The Ruger is a better finished rifle, IMO, and known to shoot well from a bench (mine would put any variety of 130+ grain factory load into MOA or better). But the more I used it, the sloppier the trigger got and the grittier it became. The safety has got some play as well. I've put probably 5k rounds through it and the barrel is toast (last time I chronoed it, I had lost almost 350 FPS on my velocity with the same known load through the rifle), but it just sits in the back of my safe now.

When you could pick them up for $350, they were an ok value. But now, at $500-$550 (depending on vendor), I would save an extra +/-$100 up and buy the blued Tikka. An individual will be lightyears ahead. It might require eating out for lunch less or waiting and being patient while you save (GASP! You mean you can't have instant gratification 100% of the time?!?!?!), but it's unquestionably a superior long term solution.

I appreciate it. I'm going to send you a PM later, I don't want to hi jack the thread.

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[nrh6.7]

@Formidilosus

I'm curious about your thoughts on how bolt fluting would affect these tests. Specifically on the t3x tikkas.

 

[gtriple]

I appreciate it. I'm going to send you a PM later, I don't want to hi jack the thread.

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I'll second the "save for a Tikka". But I would save a bit more and buy the Stainless Lite version. Depending on the caliber, you can find them used for under $600 regularly.

The Ruger American is a great rifle. I bought the Go Wild version in 308 when it first came out and it was sub MOA with everything that I threw at it. But the problem is that you can't really upgrade it from a decent low-end rifle to a high-end semi-custom. That is why Tikka is the standard. Over time, you can turn a $600 rifle into one nearly equivalent to a custom rifle.

 

[nobody]

I'll second the "save for a Tikka". But I would save a bit more and buy the Stainless Lite version. Depending on the caliber, you can find them used for under $600 regularly.

The Ruger American is a great rifle. I bought the Go Wild version in 308 when it first came out and it was sub MOA with everything that I threw at it. But the problem is that you can't really upgrade it from a decent low-end rifle to a high-end semi-custom. That is why Tikka is the standard. Over time, you can turn a $600 rifle into one nearly equivalent to a custom rifle.

Yes, the stainless is great. Good call.

The Go Wild is a good looking rifle, but for the price, the Tikka is so much better. If it's upgraded Ruger vs. Stainless Tikka, no question in my mind. At about $750 brand new, the Tikka gets you that aftermarket factor that is worth having, even if you think you'll never build on it.

Plus the reliability outlined in this thread, which is a no brainer. Even if you buy the blued one, you're getting the reliability and trustworthiness that Tikka's entire system gets you. My example was more, if a guys is looking at a blued Ruger, just buy the blued Tikka. Same for same, that's all it was.

But I agree, the stainless is (almost always) worth the upgrade cost.

 

[Formidilosus]

Interesting. If a guy was on a tight budget and would only shoot a couple hundred rounds a year, would you go with a Savage Axis or the Ruger?

Neither, Savage is worse than the American. Tikka. Even used.

@Formidilosus

I'm curious about your thoughts on how bolt fluting would affect these tests. Specifically on the t3x tikkas.

Generally bolt fluting allowing more debris and ice to accumulate on the bolt which causes more problems. On Tikka’s... personally, it’s stupid. It doesn’t reduce weight, it makes the action less smooth, and allows debris to accumulate and cause issues.

 

[Southern Lights]

The Tikka is basically a TRG-lite. Bolts are largely same design (two lugs vs. three on Sako). The recoil lug is essentially taken directly from the TRG design. The lug is embedded in the stock which then rests in a milled slot in the bottom of the action exactly like the TRG. The actions are smooth which prevents binding but has sufficient play that it's not going to get bothered by some debris. They are accurate out of the box with no need for any fiddling, blueprinting, etc.

The plastic stock of the very lightweight models are just so-so. They work, but are what they are. Upgraded stocks may be worth the money. If you are going to thrash the rifle, the plastic stocks are basically indestructible.

The T3X with steel recoil lug is worth getting over the original T3 aluminum version. But older ones can be upgraded to steel if you find a good used one. I'd take a good used T3 over a new 700 any day.

Here in NZ Tikkas are well abused and they always just work. Many guides use them as client rifles because they know that when the trigger is pulled they are going to hit unless the client flubs the shot.

Fluting is for looks not function. If the Sako TRG designers thought fluting would have helped reliability and win more military contracts they would have done it. The smooth bolt actually does not hold onto debris and can't pack it into the action by allowing it to enter when the bolt is shut. Ice and snow does not stick well to the smooth bolt.

 

[nrh6.7]

Generally bolt fluting allowing more debris and ice to accumulate on the bolt which causes more problems. On Tikka’s... personally, it’s stupid. It doesn’t reduce weight, it makes the action less smooth, and allows debris to accumulate and cause issues.

Thank you