Rifle ice/snow freeze eval 2025

[JCMCUBIC]

These eval's are very interesting. Thanks for sharing these.

If a future test is done, I'd be interested in seeing how a Howa mini with factory trigger would do. If a mini isn't available for the test, I'll send one in for the beating.

If this has been done with a mini I'd appreciate a pointer to the eval. Thanks again.

 

[Formidilosus]

These eval's are very interesting. Thanks for sharing these.

If a future test is done, I'd be interested in seeing how a Howa mini with factory trigger would do. If a mini isn't available for the test, I'll send one in for the beating.

If this has been done with a mini I'd appreciate a pointer to the eval. Thanks again.

It had been done. They behave identically to the 1500, and fail in the same way.


1500 in here-

Thread 'Ice/snow comparison between rifles'

Dec 22, 2022

I have been asked by multiple people to do an ice and snow reliability eval between rifles/actions/triggers. Tthis is not a “test”, it is just a view at what generally happens. Doing a legitimate test requires more rifles and consistent conditions than I have. So…


The rifles:

1). Tikka T3 in KRG Bravo chassis

2). Sauer 100 factory

3). Howa 1500 Alpine factory

4). Remington M7 with TT trigger and Bansner stock

5). Winchester Pre 64 M70 factory

6). Tikka T3 factory

7). Sako TRG 42 factory





This will be done in multiple steps, worst case working back back to easy...

• Formidilosus
• Replies: 314
• Forum: Firearms

• 

 

[Formidilosus]

Thanks again for sharing this test form. Initially before seeing some of these tests on Rokslide in the last year, I was skeptical of the practicality of this testing, but I am a full believer after reading some of theses threads capped off by having a rifle fail. I was rooting for the x bolt but had to face facts over my wish to have it work well.

My brother and I went on a January Montana cow hunt with an x bolt 300wsm and old tikka t3 6.5 x55 with some shooting at various ranges before the hunt. Conditions were not nearly as cold as your tests with lows only in the 20s, but snowing with winds 20-40mph blowing snow and dust into everything. The actions were not as egregious as being stuffed full of snow, but nothing was dry and clean. The Tikka, even with a warm load of n560, cycled and fired like it was a perfect day at the range and the x bolt had some issues cycling and the magazines were rendered to basically a single feed. The little Swede went on to take 3 elk with no issues in some less than ideal hunting conditions.

If I only shot these guns on nice days at the local range this would not be discovered, but shooting and practicing year round now has helped identify myriad of problems. When I got back home the x bolt was promptly sold and replaced with a tikka in 6.5 PRC. I loved that Xbolt and put a ton of time and money into it, but a potential botched hunt was not worth it for me.

Thank you for the information.

 

[Bluumoon]

Saw Defiance has a new CRF action, but… used the Remington 700 trigger. Curiosity ended w that and the price. Figured function would still follow a basic Rem 700 in test like this. MRC function and price point seems in comparison.

 

[ElPollo]

It had been done. They behave identically to the 1500, and fail in the same way.


1500 in here-

Thread 'Ice/snow comparison between rifles'

Dec 22, 2022

I have been asked by multiple people to do an ice and snow reliability eval between rifles/actions/triggers. Tthis is not a “test”, it is just a view at what generally happens. Doing a legitimate test requires more rifles and consistent conditions than I have. So…


The rifles:

1). Tikka T3 in KRG Bravo chassis

2). Sauer 100 factory

3). Howa 1500 Alpine factory

4). Remington M7 with TT trigger and Bansner stock

5). Winchester Pre 64 M70 factory

6). Tikka T3 factory

7). Sako TRG 42 factory





This will be done in multiple steps, worst case working back back to easy...

• Formidilosus
• Replies: 314
• Forum: Firearms

• 

My issue with Howas is the multiple entry points for water, ice/snow and debris into the action. The safety, bolt release, and ejection ports all have substantial openings to allow crap to get in where you don’t want it. In comparison, a tikka has less pathways for stuff to get in and cause failures. The bolt release is horizontal and is relatively sealed, the safety selector largely covers the pathway into the trigger around the safety lever, and there won’t be much of anything getting into the ejection port unless the bolt is open. As much as I want to like a Howa mini, I will take a longer, heavier action that functions and feeds when I need it to over a shorter, lighter one that might not when the chips are down.

 

[ElPollo]

My issue with Howas is the multiple entry points for water, ice/snow and debris into the action. The safety, bolt release, and ejection ports all have substantial openings to allow crap to get in where you don’t want it. In comparison, a tikka has less pathways for stuff to get in and cause failures. The bolt release is horizontal and is relatively sealed, the safety selector largely covers the pathway into the trigger around the safety lever, and there won’t be much of anything getting into the ejection port unless the bolt is open. As much as I want to like a Howa mini, I will take a longer, heavier action that functions and feeds when I need it to over a shorter, lighter one that might not when the chips are down.

My response should have gone to @JCMCUBIC.

 

[Castle Rock]

My issue with Howas is the multiple entry points for water, ice/snow and debris into the action. The safety, bolt release, and ejection ports all have substantial openings to allow crap to get in where you don’t want it. In comparison, a tikka has less pathways for stuff to get in and cause failures. The bolt release is horizontal and is relatively sealed, the safety selector largely covers the pathway into the trigger around the safety lever, and there won’t be much of anything getting into the ejection port unless the bolt is open. As much as I want to like a Howa mini, I will take a longer, heavier action that functions and feeds when I need it to over a shorter, lighter one that might not when the chips are down.

Yep, Howa took all the worst features from every rifle design and combined them into one package

 

[PathFinder]

Any input on Kimber actions? They're a scaled down pre-64, but is the trigger the same? Looks like it's a different, enclosed design. Also interested in the Jard or Triggertech options for them. The Jard is non-adjustable and looks very enclosed.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[PathFinder]

Tested a stainless Kimber Hunter action. Because of the time of year, this test is a little different than Form's, but I've done it on a couple other rifles so there is some sort of a baseline. Basically the entire trigger and action gets absolutely doused under running water, then goes into the freezer over night with the muzzle up. Two Tikkas tested previously locked up but started functioning again within a couple minutes. A Bergara was down for 20 minutes or so until it thawed out.
I'd say the Kimber failed in a different way than the other two actions I've tested. I was able to tap the safety forward and off, at which point the trigger released when pulled...but the firing pin did not. The cocking indicator at the rear of the bolt showed that it was still cocked, but with the trigger released (see picture). With stiff resistance but no hammering the bolt was able to cycle. Since I was in a hurry, at this point I began thawing everything out with a heat gun. The bolt was first, and got to where it would cycle but the firing pin would not remain cocked because the trigger was frozen. It didn't take much heat to get the trigger freed up and functioning after that.
The picture also shows some kind of anti-seize like substance in the trigger that may not be helping. My plan is to do two more tests; one after blasting all the junk out of the trigger and bolt with brake clean, and another after treating everything with a drying teflon lubricant that I bought for Uniballs and knife pivots.
@Formidilosus any input on the firing pin freezing up in the bolt? Is that part of why Tikkas use a shroud to cover everything? Maybe there's similar anti-seize/grease in the bolt that can be removed as well. I may end up trying a Jard trigger at some point, their housing is much more enclosed.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus any input on the firing pin freezing up in the bolt?

Being exposed makes it more likely to freeze up, and more than likely there is oil/grease in the firing pin and in the bolt.

Is that part of why Tikkas use a shroud to cover everything?

It certainly helps.

Maybe there's similar anti-seize/grease in the bolt that can be removed as well.

Yes sir.

I may end up trying a Jard trigger at some point, their housing is much more enclosed.View attachment 874587

I’ll be interested to see if the Jard does any better

 

[PathFinder]

Tested the Kimber again. Since the last test, the grease in the trigger was blasted out with brake cleaner. The trigger was also adjusted to sort of a rolling 2.5 lb break with quite a lot more sear engagement and over travel. Results were very promising.

Post in thread 'Kimber Hunter Build & Stock Mods'

May 27, 2025

The previous ice test is in the 2025 ice test thread, this will get duplicated there too. Basically the action and trigger get doused under running water before being placed in the freezer overnight, muzzle up. The rifle is stored in "backpacking" condition, chamber empty and safety off.

• The trigger moved immediately. The sear did not.
• With some extra force, the bolt was immediately able to cycle. This resulted in the sear releasing.
• At this point the trigger would no longer engage the sear.
• The firing pin indicator was frozen in place. Beating on the exposed back of...

• PathFinder

• 

 

[PathFinder]

Tested a Tikka with a DuPont Teflon dry spray lubricant in the trigger only. This lubricant definitely dries and leaves what looks like a white, powdery substance behind that I assume is the Teflon. It dries pretty quickly and leaves no oil residue. It's reminiscent of dye penetrant developer if you've used that before.
Since I had somewhat of a baseline with a Tikka and this test method, it was up first. No live rounds, it was stored cocked with the safety on.

• The safety required a bit of a whack to get off, but not too bad.
• The trigger itself moved, but the sear would not release
• The bolt was stiff, but was able to be forced open and back. Cycling it a couple times released the sear
• Though the trigger and sear could move, the trigger wouldn't engage the sear on its own. Pushing the trigger forward while closing the bolt allows it to engage
• The trigger could release the sear, but the firing pin wouldn't drop. This was due to ice under the cocking indicator. The firing pin would drop when the cocking indicator was stuck.
• Scraping out the ice with a knife blade and smacking the cocking indicator down allowed the rifle to return to normal function
• This all occurred in under 5 minutes

There appears to be a pattern to getting at least some bolt guns working again in the absence of heat. It's easiest to observe outside of the stock, but it should work in the stock as well.

1. Perform all actions with no round in the chamber or magazine
2. Get the safety off if it isn't already.
3. Pull the trigger and get it moving
4. Rack the bolt to get the sear moving
5. Manually hold the trigger forward while dropping the bolt handle to get the trigger to engage the sear
6. Smack the cocking indicator down if necessary to get it moving, with the sear released.
7. Run a few cycles until it sounds like the firing pin is hitting with enough force to fire a primer

I'm planning to test a few more iterations:

• Tikka, cocked and uncocked, with Teflon spray in bolt and trigger
• Kimber, cocked and uncocked, with Teflon spray in bolt and trigger
• Probably an A-Bolt II just to see what a trigger that is far less inherently reliable will do and because I have one available

Sear disengaged, firing pin wouldn't drop. Smacking the cocking indicator would get it to drop:


Ice stuck under the cocking indicator. Scraping this out with a knife was the last thing needed to get the rifle functioning normally.

 

[PathFinder]

Tested both the Tikka and Kimber uncocked. Similar to before, both triggers were able to move. Both bolts were also able to move with extra force. Both sears were frozen in place, and neither were able to be freed by running the bolt. By just breathing on them with the bolt removed, and by prying them a bit, both were able to loosen up and function quickly. Flipping the gun upside down and using a lighter would also work. That would probably be the easiest way to get the trigger thawed out in field conditions, though both stops required lots of force to depress fully.
The Kimber bolt was totally devoid of any grease or residue, it's now in the freezer after applying Teflon spray.

Pictures are of the sears frozen in the down position. That's where you'd want to hit them with a lighter to warm up the entire trigger assembly. The Kimber is a bit less exposed than the Tikka, and started moving sooner.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Snowwolfe]

This test mirrors my findings as to why I stopped using Remington 700's when hunting on Kodiak Island for blacktail in Nov and Dec. The enclosed sides of the trigger blocks the water from escaping and then it freezes.

Shame you did not test Ruger 77/Hawkeyes and Savage 110's. I think you would of discovered they would pass your test. They sure worked for me. Along with the older style Win 70 CRF actions with the older style trigger system.

 

[Undrgrndprdcts]

So obviously there are thousands and thousands of 700 clones in the form of custom hunting rifles out there now. What is the best trigger to use for these when considering this kind of weather? Surely the answer can't be "there is none", or we would hear about failures a lot more. Is there at least a best bet? This doesn't make me feel confident about my TT 2 stage. Honestly it has me questioning using my bighorn for a new build and just sticking with my old builds on model 70s. That kinda sucks though.

 

[JohnJohnson]

So obviously there are thousands and thousands of 700 clones in the form of custom hunting rifles out there now. What is the best trigger to use for these when considering this kind of weather? Surely the answer can't be "there is none", or we would hear about failures a lot more. Is there at least a best bet? This doesn't make me feel confident about my TT 2 stage. Honestly it has me questioning using my bighorn for a new build and just sticking with my old builds on model 70s. That kinda sucks though.

I think the two that are highly thought of (relatively speaking) are Geissele Super 700 and XTSP Mod 22.

 

[RockAndSage]

The enclosed sides of the trigger blocks the water from escaping and then it freezes.

This is one of the biggest factors in trigger reliability for ARs as well. Enclosed and semi-enclosed "cassette" triggers are far more prone to malfunctions than the open milspec or Geissele-style triggers. Stuff gets in and can't get out, gets jammed between moving parts and the sidewall, etc.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I really like the feel of my KRG Midas on the Tikka 223. Picked up another for the 22 CM when it’s comes to keep continuity between the two. The two stage trigger feels really nice and I much prefer the wider trigger shoe compared to the fairly narrow factory one.

Ben, how has this trigger been doing in summer shooting/scouting/rucking days?

Still going strong? Any issues seen?