Ice/snow comparison between rifles

[JohnJohnson]

It does a little bit. Not enough better for me to choose to use a 700 pattern action, but they do help a bit. True two stage triggers all help with debris as the first stage can help clear ice/dirt/sand.

I wonder how much better or worse the Huber two-stages I use would do for that. They're staged break, not true two-stage triggers. But they're also a lot more enclosed and better at keeping debris out since they're not user-adjustable. I'm not sure if those two things would cancel out or what.

 

[Formidilosus]

R700 pattern:

I tiny bit of ice on the extractor.


And a little around the bolt face.





Tikka:

 

[Formidilosus]

I wonder how much better or worse the Huber two-stages I use would do for that. They're staged break, not true two-stage triggers. But they're also a lot more enclosed and better at keeping debris out since they're not user-adjustable. I'm not sure if those two things would cancel out or what.

It’s been a few years since I really used Hubers, but they didn’t do any better than any standard trigger. Them not being an actual two stage also is just silly.

It’s not really a “trigger” issue. That is the base disease isn’t going to be fixed with a new trigger. It’s the way a 700 pattern trigger interacts with the sear, etc. No one has been able to truly fix it with a new trigger. The answer is to move away from the R700 pattern.

Note: this isn’t me saying you can’t kill or use an R700. It’s simply that they are inherently less safe, with less margin for error, and more susceptible to failure with sand, dust, ice, snow, debris than other trigger/action designs.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

It does a little bit. Not enough better for me to choose to use a 700 pattern action, but they do help a bit. True two stage triggers all help with debris as the first stage can help clear ice/dirt/sand.

That’s interesting regarding the first stage. I prefer a single stage and have switched my Geissele Super 700 to such. I wonder if that would have any adverse effect in inclement weather. I’ll have to do some testing I guess.

 

[Southern Lights]

My point is that the bolt and firing pin designs are pretty much the same between the two. So I dont see how one is significantly more prone to water infiltration than the other.

virtually zero condensation occurs in a confined space like a firing pin cavity compared to an exposed surface. Its not impossible of course. But again, both rifles would accumulate it to the same degree if it was happening at all.

The rifles have significant differences. The primary is that the Tikka is roughly based on the Sako TRG which was based on the original Tikka design. The bolt lugs are not flat, but angled and this reduces the chance of ice being wedged into the lug recess in my opinion vs. the 700. The smooth bolt prevents ice build up and dirt from entering the action. Fluting the bolt actually makes rifles much less reliable in my experience and is mainly cosmetic. Smooth bolts are much harder for ice to grip onto or for build-up to enter the action.

The Tikka trigger likewise has many attributes similar to the TRG/Sako with decades of refinement in very cold environments.

The Tikka also has a more enclosed action which boosts receiver strength and again helps keep weather out better than most 700 actions which are more open.

For firing pin sluggishness. This can be lube related. However when I've seen it usually it is the rear tang of the bolt where the firing pin protrudes allow ice to form and this is what causes the firing pin to hangup. My TRGs have done this, but usually the first is a light strike and the ice blows off. Then the rifle cocks and fires without issue.

I don't hunt in conditions like Finland, but if it will be cold I will actually keep my rifle outdoors overnight vs. taking into a warm hut. The warm to cold transition will almost always lead to water/ice buildup not just on the action, but the scope oculars as well. Better to keep the rifle cold if you are hunting in the cold the next day.

I too have seen failures of 700 actions in the cold where the TRG inspired actions/triggers just shrug it off. The findings here are exactly as I've seen.

Essentially, the Tikka is a direct descendant of the milspec TRG in many ways. The bolt has only two lugs vs. 3 on the TRG but they have many identical design features. Even parts like the Tikka inverted recoil lug is directly taken from the TRG design which also explains why they are so accurate out of the box. The TRG is just a really good rifle for accuracy and reliability.

For those interested, the Sako TRG was the Tikka M65A design taken forward. If you look at the rifle you can see the chassis and concepts are similar. Even had the famous two stage trigger. This rifle is, IMO, the grandfather of the TRG/Tikka T3:

Second-hand Tikka M65A - ShootingUK

The ultra-smooth bolt action and accuracy of the Tikka M65A belies its potential as a sniper rifle

www.shootinguk.co.uk

 

[westsloper]

Through all this is sounds like Howas are a decent choice for someone who absolutely will not get a Tikka for whatever reason. Unless I’ve missed something.

 

[Frank Dux]

Kind of wish the MK12 was part of this test. Been admiring that one for a while. If you were building a new AR would you change anything from that one?

 

[Marshfly]

Through all this is sounds like Howas are a decent choice for someone who absolutely will not get a Tikka for whatever reason. Unless I’ve missed something.

I admittedly haven't hunted with it but I really like the one Howa 1500 that I own. I don't use it much since I bought the same caliber in a Tikka but every single time I handle it I think to myself how nice it is.

 

[grfox92]

Through all this is sounds like Howas are a decent choice for someone who absolutely will not get a Tikka for whatever reason. Unless I’ve missed something.

I think for what is currently on the market they are the runner up for an I expensive factory rifle.

Tikka followed by Howa or Browning X Bolt.

Sent from my SM-G990U2 using Tapatalk

 

[FCCDerek]

The downside of the Brownings is the lack of aftermarket support. If you're a tinkerer I'd stay away from Brownings. Plus, they tend to charge a lot for what you get, which I don't think is any nicer than a Tikka.

I think for what is currently on the market they are the runner up for an I expensive factory rifle.

Tikka followed by Howa or Browning X Bolt.

Sent from my SM-G990U2 using Tapatalk

 

[medvedyt]

@Formidilosus thank you very much for the time spent on those tests.

i was one of those mocking the choice made by our army with the c19 for the rangers and after using a ctr for wolf hunting and other tikkas now i can say how wrong i was ... the main reason i avoided tikka here in the yukon was because 3 guys got an issue with the same model t3 300 win mag: they were not able to shoot in really cold conditions so i assumed it was the tool and not the users the issue ....

for bolt i moved completely to tikka and sold ruger and zastava ones and cant complaint and your tests plus the fact they are coming from a cold country similar to what we have plus the feedback from our rangers tell us.

thank you very much again.

 

[Smenning]

Game reaper scope mount on the M7? Reliable? @Formidilosus

 

[Formidilosus]

Game reaper scope mount on the M7? Reliable? @Formidilosus

Yes that is a Game Reaper one piece. It’s good, haven’t seen any issues so far, though it not my favorite. My M7 was a three base screw model; the fourth screw has been added now to it.

 

[Smenning]

Yes that is a Game Reaper one piece. It’s good, haven’t seen any issues so far, though it not my favorite. My M7 was a three base screw model; the fourth screw has been added now to it.

Appreciate it, trying to keep it low on the action and not use a pic rail. Do you have a favorite for the three or four hole model?

 

[Clint E.]

After reading this thread and this one https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/cold-snow-rifle-test.385927/ I was inspired to do some testing of my own. I could not do this testing at my range so it is more just a partial test, and far from scientific, looking back I should have used a set volume of water like Form did. I have no dog in this fight just want to contribute.

My biggest takeaway is that if you manage to get this much water in your action and it freezes you are pretty much screwed if you cannot thaw it out somehow.

Video 1 - shows water being poured into both actions - ejection port, through trigger guard, and tang aera. Both Rifles went into the deep freeze for 2 hrs.

Rifle#1 Info (Chassis rifle)
Action - Old Bighorn TL3 with about 9k rounds through it.
Trigger - Tubb T7T set at about 2.5 lbs

Video starts right after I took the action out of the freezer. Bolt had to be beat open. Action would not cock, bolt release and safety were frozen, but trigger shoe could be moved back and forth somewhat.

After ~6 min at the 6:12 mark in the video the action cocks and I hold it up to the camera and the firing pin falls without me pulling the trigger, after that it starts functioning normally.

Rifle#2 Tikka T3x
Action - Completely stock Tikka T3X 223.
Trigger - Completely stock Tikka with pull weight screw backed out as far as it will go, factory trigger spring. Pull weight 2.7lbs.

Pulled from the freezer at the 2:12 mark. (quickly put stock on because it wouldn't fit in freezer, but water was poured on with rifle assembled.) Bolt had to be beat open. Action would not cock, bolt release, safety and trigger were completely frozen.

After ~9 min out of the freezer at about the 11:12 mark in the video the rifle cocks and starts to function.

Other observations.
Both actions have about the same ejection port aera.
I would suspect in real world conditions it would be much harder to have water get into the tikka trigger from the bottom vs. the chassis as the opening where the trigger comes through the stock on the tikka is much smaller.