I propose the “Fair opportunity in America’s Outdoors Act”

[3forks]

Didn’t read 14 pages but I do have a question. Who’s changed their opinion based on the 14 pages of back and forth?

I have.

I was pretty sympathetic about non-residents losing opportunities, but the arguments made by most of the non-resident hunters in this thread for why we should sell off public lands have made me no longer really care that they’re losing opportunities. Before, I could see their gripes, but now I couldn’t care less about their side of the equation.

 

[svivian]

I have.

I was pretty sympathetic about non-residents losing opportunities, but the arguments made by most of the non-resident hunters in this thread for why we should sell off public lands have made me no longer really care that they’re losing opportunities. Before, I could see their gripes, but now I couldn’t care less about their side of the equation.

Well said

 

[Peaks&Creeks]

Well said

X2


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[Ucsdryder]

I have.

I was pretty sympathetic about non-residents losing opportunities, but the arguments made by most of the non-resident hunters in this thread for why we should sell off public lands have made me no longer really care that they’re losing opportunities. Before, I could see their gripes, but now I couldn’t care less about their side of the equation.

Well said…Every time I think I’ve read the dumbest shit ever on here…someone says “hold my beer!” I think that takes cake!

 

[pk_]

That ship has sailed. Literally decades now since AZ went to 90/10 and had challenges in court. Other states have since followed and now WYO is another of many. Precedent has been set and likely nothing to stop a 90/10 allocation if a state chooses to do so.

I don’t think his problem is with the 90/10. I think it is with the fact that of the 10%, there seems to be a growing number being dedicated to those using outfitters. I think his problem is this, that the overall trend is headed in the wrong direction and the apathy that many have about people being priced out of diy hunting. When I was growing up it seemed the sentiment was that sportsman never wanted hunting and fishing to become a rich man’s game. Now the common sentiment seems to be ‘put up or shut up’. Some people either don’t see the eventuality of that mindset or don’t care (or they know there is little to nothing that can be done about it).

The outfitter bias out west is absolutely ridiculous. It’s like coastal states telling NR you can come to the beach, but you can’t fish without hiring a guide. I live in probably the most common fishing destination in the country and I would never back something like that. You want to come fish, buy your license and bring a rod. If you need help, plenty of guides who will take your money.

I know it isn’t apples to apples, fishing is different, much more plentiful and accessible of a resource etc… but I think you can understand. This is supposed to be our land and water. The idea of someone telling you that you can’t do this without paying through the nose for someone to hold your hand, is pretty freaking lame. I am not complaining or whining, I get it, it’s the world we live in, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t lame.

I understand money makes the world go round and NR that use outfitters pump more money into the local economy and that diy NR are an easy scape goat for outfitters and grumpy locals alike. I get it and I understand supply and demand. It’s easy for me to fall into the same thought pattern about NR coming to hunt Osceola turkeys in S FL. The attention put on them in the last few years is insane. Many of the places I grew up hunting them, I may never be able to again nor my kids.

People would probably be surprised that there are places in Florida where it takes over a decade to draw a whitetail hunt. Let that sink in. I can draw the best place in the country, in Iowa, twice, before I can draw particular FL deer hunts on public land. This isn’t due to NRs, it’s due to a lack of opportunity. Once you get rid of the NR ‘problem’, residents are next on the chopping block for reduced opportunity. That is a fact.

These issues aren’t new, overcrowding, habitat loss and destruction, restricting and losing access, large predators unchecked due to bogus ESA status. We have been dealing with this stuff for generations in FL at a rate that would make your head spin. I am a 3rd generation South Floridian and my family has watched this place get decimated in the last 60+ years. I know S FL has some unique problems that do not translate to the West, but I believe it has given us an accelerated view of where this path leads.

I feel for you guys out west I really do. Most of you will never see it but your children's children will. Things will continue to degrade as will the opportunities. Think about what the last 40 years have been like and now look ahead to the next 40 and accelerate that trajectory by 2-4x. That is your reality when it comes to opportunity, access and issues facing the lifestyle that you love. So if the future you see is a good one for hunters and outdoorsman as whole, then disregard what I am saying. But if you see the writing on the wall that there is a lot of work that needs to be done to shift the momentum, then the name calling, finger pointing and sticking our tongues out at each other over our home address, might not be the best way forward. That’s just coming from someone who loves the outdoors and wild places as much as you do, that has seen his local wild places become desolate and wildlife become nearly non-existent.

We should be building bridges, not walls.

Anyways, there is my 10 minute contribution to this dumpster fire.

 

[Rifleman86]

I don’t think his problem is with the 90/10. I think it is with the fact that of the 10%, there seems to be a growing number being dedicated to those using outfitters. I think his problem is this, that the overall trend is headed in the wrong direction and the apathy that many have about people being priced out of diy hunting. When I was growing up it seemed the sentiment was that sportsman never wanted hunting and fishing to become a rich man’s game. Now the common sentiment seems to be ‘put up or shut up’. Some people either don’t see the eventuality of that mindset or don’t care (or they know there is little to nothing that can be done about it).

The outfitter bias out west is absolutely ridiculous. It’s like coastal states telling NR you can come to the beach, but you can’t fish without hiring a guide. I live in probably the most common fishing destination in the country and I would never back something like that. You want to come fish, buy your license and bring a rod. If you need help, plenty of guides who will take your money.

I know it isn’t apples to apples, fishing is different, much more plentiful and accessible of a resource etc… but I think you can understand. This is supposed to be our land and water. The idea of someone telling you that you can’t do this without paying through the nose for someone to hold your hand, is pretty freaking lame. I am not complaining or whining, I get it, it’s the world we live in, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t lame.

I understand money makes the world go round and NR that use outfitters pump more money into the local economy and that diy NR are an easy scape goat for outfitters and grumpy locals alike. I get it and I understand supply and demand. It’s easy for me to fall into the same thought pattern about NR coming to hunt Osceola turkeys in S FL. The attention put on them in the last few years is insane. Many of the places I grew up hunting them, I may never be able to again nor my kids.

People would probably be surprised that there are places in Florida where it takes over a decade to draw a whitetail hunt. Let that sink in. I can draw the best place in the country, in Iowa, twice, before I can draw particular FL deer hunts on public land. This isn’t due to NRs, it’s due to a lack of opportunity. Once you get rid of the NR ‘problem’, residents are next on the chopping block for reduced opportunity. That is a fact.

These issues aren’t new, overcrowding, habitat loss and destruction, restricting and losing access, large predators unchecked due to bogus ESA status. We have been dealing with this stuff for generations in FL at a rate that would make your head spin. I am a 3rd generation South Floridian and my family has watched this place get decimated in the last 60+ years. I know S FL has some unique problems that do not translate to the West, but I believe it has given us an accelerated view of where this path leads.

I feel for you guys out west I really do. Most of you will never see it but your children's children will. Things will continue to degrade as will the opportunities. Think about what the last 40 years have been like and now look ahead to the next 40 and accelerate that trajectory by 2-4x. That is your reality when it comes to opportunity, access and issues facing the lifestyle that you love. So if the future you see is a good one for hunters and outdoorsman as whole, then disregard what I am saying. But if you see the writing on the wall that there is a lot of work that needs to be done to shift the momentum, then the name calling, finger pointing and sticking our tongues out at each other over our home address, might not be the best way forward. That’s just coming from someone who loves the outdoors and wild places as much as you do, that has seen his local wild places become desolate and wildlife become nearly non-existent.

We should be building bridges, not walls.

Anyways, there is my 10 minute contribution to this dumpster fire.

@pk_ thank you! I couldn’t have said it better myself… This is exactly what I was getting at with my OP, I just didn’t say it as eloquently as you just did.

If more posts were like this, instead of the name calling, finger pointing, and stupid memes, this place would be much better off, and hunting as a whole would be headed in a much better direction.

 

[tdhanses]

I've went from against 90/10 for deer elk and antelope to for it

I completely agree actually, but to qualify as a resident you should hold a birth certificate in the state . Then all these transplants wouldn’t take our tags.

 

[sneaky]

Im not in the game and dont care.

Im in FL. You and i would apply for the same tag and have the same opportunity. We charge a lil more for NR licenses but only have 1 draw. Same for most of the eastern states. Thats what makes the whining foreign to so many folks. A goodly number of the eastern states also do not require a draw to buy a license and hunt.

Our fishing is regulated by area. Offshore stuff is lumped in with a handful of eastern seaboard states and the gulf fishing is involved with the gulf fisheries and those states. Everyone can go and play by the rules.

All you propose is that you are more worthy than others for x or y. You’ll figure it out some day.

When was the last time you heard someone from a western state telling the residents of an eastern state how to run their fish and game program?
Guess we need a refund for those billions we've wasted on Florida rebuilding it after every hurricane season.

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[sneaky]

Do any of those leases in white tail country receive federal subsidies for crops?


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Why, they get paid not to plant crops. The horror!

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[manitou1]

I propose the "Enhance Conservation, Environment and Game Numbers Act", reducing the tag allotments, improving habitat, and
halting harmful agriculture and commericial destructive practices".

 

[sneaky]

I do feel at one point there will be some push back if things keep going the same direction in a lot of states. Who knows what that pushback will look like, but it might be really bad for residents that have had it really, really good for decades on end. I also don’t want to see is dissolve into a state vs state pissing match punishing each other’s non residents.

I just think we should work together to keep things somewhat reasonable before that happens.

Wait a minute. This thread didn't go as you expected and now you want everybody to sit in a drum circle and sing kumbaya? That's not how this works. Every state is free to manage their wildlife as they see fit, no one is telling Ohio how to run theirs. Ohio guys bitched enough about NR killing off their deer that NR license prices doubled a couple years back. Bet you didn't lose any sleep over that, did you? Of course not. Game populations in the west will never support the type of hunting pressure that eastern states have. Never. You guys think that the $5.95 you each contribute through taxes to the Dept of Interior every year should buy you the same chances as residents have. It's a ridiculous argument on every level.

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[TSAMP]

Ive always found it highly annoying when someone tries to get a thread discussion shut down. You dont have to read it. Go read another thread if you dont like this one.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I think it’s fair along with 90/10.


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I say close down All NR hunting and fishing nation wide. We aren’t Americans!!!

 

[cmahoney]

I say close down All NR hunting and fishing nation wide. We aren’t Americans!!!

What would a quality hunt in Texas cost me? I’m willing to bet I couldn’t get the same experience on a public land Texas hunt that you could get here in NV for a $1200 non resident Elk or Sheep tag. Could I kill a giant white tail down there for $1200 or a 350 bull?


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[cuerro viejo]

What would a quality hunt in Texas cost me? I’m willing to bet I couldn’t get the same experience on a public land Texas hunt that you could get here in NV for a $1200 non resident Elk or Sheep tag. Could I kill a giant white tail down there for $1200 or a 350 bull?


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My last Public land WT (realistically chasing 140-190”) was free application no fees just license. Zero restrictions on applicants state of residence.

You missed a decade or two of NR Applications cost on your NV example.

If you draw a sheep tag in Texas it’s $10 app plus a NR license of $315 that you don’t even have to front. With that said even after 20 years of applications cost that’s only $515, what’s NV’s…..

As far as 350 bulls in Texas more common then you think, but the main Mulie drawn hunts, they are a free extra as they try to keep numbers down to keep pressure off BH sheep.

Texas also has the exotics like Nilgai and aoudad that are essentially a $3 application, No residence preference and $65 exotic lic if you draw. That’s cheaper then one years application to Nevada as NR

Also all TPWD draw tags don’t count towards your lic allocation of 5 WT and 2 Mule deer.

 

[cuerro viejo]

When was the last time you heard someone from a western state telling the residents of an eastern state how to run their fish and game program?
Guess we need a refund for those billions we've wasted on Florida rebuilding it after every hurricane season.

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Not one person is telling them how to manage their game populations. All F&G departments manages wildlife in a sustainability model based off Animal numbers and hunter success.

American License plates and DL’s are not wildlife.

 

[cmahoney]

My last Public land WT (realistically chasing 140-190”) was free application no fees just license. Zero restrictions on applicants state of residence.

You missed a decade or two of NR Applications cost on your NV example.

If you draw a sheep tag in Texas it’s $10 app plus a NR license of $315 that you don’t even have to front. With that said even after 20 years of applications cost that’s only $515, what’s NV’s…..

As far as 350 bulls in Texas more common then you think, but the main Mulie drawn hunts, they are a free extra as they try to keep numbers down to keep pressure off BH sheep.

Texas also has the exotics like Nilgai and aoudad that are essentially a $3 application, No residence preference and $65 exotic lic if you draw. That’s cheaper then one years application to Nevada as NR

Also all TPWD draw tags don’t count towards your lic allocation of 5 WT and 2 Mule deer.

So Texas is the model, you are missing the fact we don’t have the abundance of animals in the states you guys are complaining about. There is a reason it takes a long time to draw a tag here, we don’t have the green habitat and NDOW does a good job managing for quality, by limiting tags for both residents and non-resident’s.

What do you propose NDOW does about non resident tag allocation and cost?

CA is an example where the habitat is awesome in some of the OTC and draw units it’s extremely hard to find deer where they should be. I would hate to see that happen here. When you draw a decent tag here you aren’t going to run into a ton of people and you are going to find animals, that’s a quality hunt for me

My opinion is 90/10 is fare and I’m happy to apply in all the other states that have that rule.


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[cuerro viejo]

Wait a minute. This thread didn't go as you expected and now you want everybody to sit in a drum circle and sing kumbaya? That's not how this works. Every state is free to manage their wildlife as they see fit, no one is telling Ohio how to run theirs. Ohio guys bitched enough about NR killing off their deer that NR license prices doubled a couple years back. Bet you didn't lose any sleep over that, did you? Of course not. Game populations in the west will never support the type of hunting pressure that eastern states have. Never. You guys think that the $5.95 you each contribute through taxes to the Dept of Interior every year should buy you the same chances as residents have. It's a ridiculous argument on every level.

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No it’s are excessive license cost we have to buy each year just so western states can get License # up to stay relevant in the PR agoltimn

So Texas is the model, you are missing the fact we don’t have the abundance of animals in the states you guys are complaining about. There is a reason it takes a long time to draw a tag here, we don’t have the green habitat and NDOW does a good job managing for quality, by limiting tags for both residents and non-resident’s.

What do you propose NDOW does about non resident tag allocation and cost?

CA is an example where the habitat is awesome in some of the OTC and draw units it’s extremely hard to find deer where they should be. I would hate to see that happen here. When you draw a decent tag here you aren’t going to run into a ton of people and you are going to find animals, that’s a quality hunt for me

My opinion is 90/10 is fare and I’m happy to apply in all the other states that have that rule.


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I’m not dis-counting numbers and draw times I get that… that’s just part of western hunting.

My issue is the exponential large application costs, that are also used to capture PR money by upping license numbers to stay relevant in PR dispersal algorithm, all for a dismal chance. I’m going to spend a couple grand in NV before I ever draw. As more and more states decide they are Sovereign Reservations and not American states NR’s don’t have a choice if they want to hunt any where besides home they have to spread out applications across multiple states. At that point it’s cheaper to buy LO tags and Auction Tags.

 

[cmahoney]

No it’s are excessive license cost we have to buy each year just so western states can get License # up to stay relevant in the PR agoltimn

I’m not dis-counting numbers and draw times I get that… that’s just part of western hunting.

My issue is the exponential large application costs, that are also used to capture PR money by upping license numbers to stay relevant in PR dispersal algorithm, all for a dismal chance. I’m going to spend a couple grand in NV before I ever draw. As more and more states decide they are Sovereign Reservations and not American states NR’s don’t have a choice if they want to hunt any where besides home but spread out applications across multiple states. At that point it’s cheaper to buy LO tags and Auction Tags.

So what should NDOW charge? I think the apps are reasonable. I’ll agree with you on the annual license cost though, they could be less and a point only option at a reduced rate would be nice. I apply in 8 states and it adds up. I still think 90/10 is reasonable.

I don’t think non residents from white tail states understand how hard it is for residents to get some of these tags too. I am happy to wait for a quality hunt, it’s a long game.

I hunt CA if I don’t have a tag somewhere else because they are easy to get and the Sierras are a nice place to back pack in. I wish it was harder to get a tag though because the country has so much potential but 30,000 OTC tags keep the deer down.


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[cuerro viejo]

So what should NDOW charge? I think the apps are reasonable. I’ll agree with you on the annual license cost though, they could be less and a point only option at a reduced rate would be nice. I apply in 8 states and it adds up. I still think 90/10 is reasonable.

I don’t think non residents from white tail states understand how hard it is for residents to get some of these tags too. I am happy to wait for a quality hunt, it’s a long game.

I hunt CA if I don’t have a tag somewhere else because they are easy to get and the Sierras are a nice place to back pack in. I wish it was harder to get a tag though because the country has so much potential but 30,000 OTC tags keep the deer down.


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I think we understand, most of us know that if we want to hunt Moose Sheep or Goats in Lower 48 we will have to buy an auction tag. We also see LO and Auction tags becoming the new Higher means NR subsidy.

If you restrict NR, NR shouldn’t have to buy a license to apply. That’s just a Con to inflate hunting lic numbers for funding, and line pockets. That’s my number one issue.


One thing to think about,
Less NR hunting means less generational votes whom don’t care about western wildlife

Think about it, TX sales almost 2x more hunting licenses then the entire population of WY. That’s just TX, what about Penn, etc

How are NR going to vote on national issues or conservation funding when all people do is bastardize us for wanting to hunt in America.