How do we get a heavy (120+ grain) 6mm bullet made?

[Wyo_hntr]

I wonder if perceived scarcity is an intentional move. If they're always in stock maybe people don't buy surplus "just in case"?

 

[ddowning]

A while back (probably longer than I think) Tubb was working with Sierra on a 117 grain polymer tipped dtac. It never launched as a product because the results weren't as good as the existing dtac. The speculation around the death of the project was deforming plastic tips in flight. For that reason alone, I would think Hornady would be the one if you want a polymer tip for what it offers in terminal performance.

If I had to bet, that is when the nose ring came about. A few years later after testing, Tubb let the cat out of the bag and started marketing the design.

I'm not sure what it was with the first couple lots of dtac rbts, but the accuracy was insanely good. I wish I could have afforded 100k of them. I never would have shot another bullet out of a 6mm except for hunting (this was before nose rings). The boattail was a slightly different shape then, so I'm not sure if it was that or just the consistency from the new dies and process.

 

[Smenning]

Basically all other diameters have higher form factors than 6mm. There are .224 bullets with higher BC’s than all but one 6mm on the market. There’s no reason that there aren’t multiple low to mid .600 BC 6mm bullets.





A 110-115gr 6mm is about like a 130-135gr 6.5mm, or a 150gr 7mm, or 190gr 30cal.

Would a 25UM or 25-7prc solve the BC issue with only a minimum increase in felt recoil?

 

[ddowning]

Would a 25UM or 25-7prc solve the BC issue with only a minimum increase in felt recoil?

Maybe you already realize this, and I'm just reading too much into the wording. It's not really "felt" recoil, but the ability to spot shots with a light, handy rifle. When approaching the situation from this perspective, the difference will be noticeable. There is a difference that is perceivable when I go from a 105 at 3200 fps to a 115 at 3050 fps in a 15# 243 Ackley. You don't feel it, but what you see through the scope is noticeably different. The 105 is easier to spot at close range from awkward positions and the 115 gives a lot more splash and target reaction at long range with the tradeoff coming at more reticle movement from recoil.

 

[Axlrod]

I wonder if perceived scarcity is an intentional move. If they're always in stock maybe people don't buy surplus "just in case"?

I don't know of a single company that makes money (their driving reason for existence) by having nothing to sell.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

I don't know of a single company that makes money (their driving reason for existence) by having nothing to sell.

Cool, maybe let berger know then.

 

[ljalberta]

Hornady 120 ELDMs would be magic.

 

[Axlrod]

Cool, maybe let berger know then.

Why? Do you feel Nammo group is purposely limiting their revenue, by having bullet lines set idle?

Nammo.com

Learn more about the latest in specialty ammunition and rocket motors.

www.nammo.com

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Why? Do you feel Nammo group is purposely limiting their revenue, by having bullet lines set idle?

Nammo.com

Learn more about the latest in specialty ammunition and rocket motors.

www.nammo.com

No. What I'm saying is since many of the bullets berger sells are perpetually out of stock, you might want to let them know they won't make money with nothing to sell.

That's all.

 

[180ls1]

Would a 25UM or 25-7prc solve the BC issue with only a minimum increase in felt recoil?

Yes, most wouldn't even know the difference.

 

[B23]

I'd think the biggest concern for manufactures is making a really heavy for caliber bullet, say a 6mm 120 ELDM, that'll require a very fast twist, like a 6.5tw or maybe faster, to fully stabilize and get the full BC of the bullet then folks shooting them in things that are capable of launching them 3200+ because that would be a lot of RPM for a bullet to survive. Then, when folks start shooting these things and the bullets are coming apart, due to the excessive RPM, they're pissed off at the manufacture because they think the bullet is a POS.

I think longgggg heavy for caliber bullets are cool the damn things look badass and lethal just sitting still but I also think there's a point of diminishing return with this stuff and we get to a point where to much of a good thing is no longer a good thing. IMO, that's where the 25 cal with these new heavies like the 134 ELD-M and 135 Berger have the ability to outshine the 6's. A 25 SAUM or the improved version like a 25UM or maybe even a 25-7PRC could be a real sleeper. I've never been a quarter bore fan but I'm pretty excited about getting my 25 SAUM built to shoot the 134/135 class bullets.

 

[DangerRanger]

I'd think the biggest concern for manufactures is making a really heavy for caliber bullet, say a 6mm 120 ELDM, that'll require a very fast twist, like a 6.5tw or maybe faster, to fully stabilize and get the full BC of the bullet then folks shooting them in things that are capable of launching them 3200+ because that would be a lot of RPM for a bullet to survive. Then, when folks start shooting these things and the bullets are coming apart, due to the excessive RPM, they're pissed off at the manufacture because they think the bullet is a POS.

I think longgggg heavy for caliber bullets are cool the damn things look badass and lethal just sitting still but I also think there's a point of diminishing return with this stuff and we get to a point where to much of a good thing is no longer a good thing. IMO, that's where the 25 cal with these new heavies like the 134 ELD-M and 135 Berger have the ability to outshine the 6's. A 25 SAUM or the improved version like a 25UM or maybe even a 25-7PRC could be a real sleeper. I've never been a quarter bore fan but I'm pretty excited about getting my 25 SAUM built to shoot the 134/135 class bullets.

Hornady just dropped the 22 creed though, designed around a high bc 223 bullet going fast as hell

 

[Dobie07]

I'd think the biggest concern for manufactures is making a really heavy for caliber bullet, say a 6mm 120 ELDM, that'll require a very fast twist, like a 6.5tw or maybe faster, to fully stabilize and get the full BC of the bullet then folks shooting them in things that are capable of launching them 3200+ because that would be a lot of RPM for a bullet to survive. Then, when folks start shooting these things and the bullets are coming apart, due to the excessive RPM, they're pissed off at the manufacture because they think the bullet is a POS.

I think longgggg heavy for caliber bullets are cool the damn things look badass and lethal just sitting still but I also think there's a point of diminishing return with this stuff and we get to a point where to much of a good thing is no longer a good thing. IMO, that's where the 25 cal with these new heavies like the 134 ELD-M and 135 Berger have the ability to outshine the 6's. A 25 SAUM or the improved version like a 25UM or maybe even a 25-7PRC could be a real sleeper. I've never been a quarter bore fan but I'm pretty excited about getting my 25 SAUM built to shoot the 134/135 class bullets.

@B23, I posted on the first page a screen shot from Bergers twist calculator, it looks like you’d only need a 7.5 twist to get our theoretical bullet stable at moderate elevation. This would keep bullet rpms right around 300,000 which would be fairly normal for most 6mm setups being run.

 

[Dobie07]

Hornady just dropped the 22 creed though, designed around a high bc 223 bullet going fast as hell

Yep, a 6 PRC seems like the obvious next evolution if they’re working up the ladder. And a 25 creed and 25 PRC while they’re at it to keep the quarter bore fans happy

 

[Smenning]

Maybe you already realize this, and I'm just reading too much into the wording. It's not really "felt" recoil, but the ability to spot shots with a light, handy rifle. When approaching the situation from this perspective, the difference will be noticeable. There is a difference that is perceivable when I go from a 105 at 3200 fps to a 115 at 3050 fps in a 15# 243 Ackley. You don't feel it, but what you see through the scope is noticeably different. The 105 is easier to spot at close range from awkward positions and the 115 gives a lot more splash and target reaction at long range with the tradeoff coming at more reticle movement from recoil.

I suppose I could have worded that differently, my question is would the jump from a 108-115 or 120gr .243 up to a 133-134 .257 make it measurably different to spot your own shots? Obviously there is a trade off for everything, higher bc is typically coming from bullet weight which will typically add more recoil (pulling the reticle off target). I’m not disagreeing with anyone a 120 grain tipped match bullet for 6mm would be the bees knees. I just wonder if there is too much overlap between the options that are already available.

 

[ElPollo]

Yes.
The difference between Dtacs and bullets that Sierra makes with their own label is, Tubb orders a lot of bullets- enough to last between multiple year breaks in production runs. Sierra has no clue on how many of any particular bullet to make when they run their own.

I don't pretend to know the why's of bullet production, but some companies have a better production capacity vs number of products ratio. Just looking on Midway, Sierra is out of stock on 70 out of 188 different Sku's listed. Berger is out of 78 out of 138 Sku's To compare Hornady is out of stock on 5 out of 201 Sku's.

Sierra isn’t like other bullet manufacturers. They don’t seem to care about either innovating or keeping components in stock for handloaders. Most of their production goes to ammo manufacturers who are turning out cheap, high-volume range ammo. I seriously doubt they would be worth anyone’s time to bug about making a new heavy for caliber 6mm bullet. They won’t see a market for it.

 

[B23]

@B23, I posted on the first page a screen shot from Bergers twist calculator, it looks like you’d only need a 7.5 twist to get our theoretical bullet stable at moderate elevation. This would keep bullet rpms right around 300,000 which would be fairly normal for most 6mm setups being run.

I saw that but don't you think something like a 120 ELD-M would be longer then your 1.38 example? I'd expect it to be somewhere in the low to mid 1.4's for OAL.

 

[180ls1]

I suppose I could have worded that differently, my question is would the jump from a 108-115 or 120gr .243 up to a 133-134 .257 make it measurably different to spot your own shots? Obviously there is a trade off for everything, higher bc is typically coming from bullet weight which will typically add more recoil (pulling the reticle off target). I’m not disagreeing with anyone a 120 grain tipped match bullet for 6mm would be the bees knees. I just wonder if there is too much overlap between the options that are already available.

No doubt the time spend lobbying, emailing, crunching numbers and analyzing would be better off choosing the already existing higher BC 25cal and shooting with it.

 

[Dobie07]

I saw that but don't you think something like a 120 ELD-M would be longer then your 1.38 example? I'd expect it to be somewhere in the low to mid 1.4's for OAL.

Yeah not sure tbh, the 115 VLD is 1.35. Not sure how much longer it’d need to be to add 5 grains. FWIW 1.40 is still stable. But starts to get marginal beyond that.

 

[Formidilosus]

Would a 25UM or 25-7prc solve the BC issue with only a minimum increase in felt recoil?

Yes and no. Yes, they work, but you are limited to three bullets total that are even decent- if you can’t find those, there are no other alternatives. And, in something like a 25CM- there is no factory ammo. The .257 is like .277- the support just isn’t there.

No, it doesn’t do the same thing because 133-135gr bullets causes enough muzzle movement to be noticeably less “shootable”. A couple of ft-lbs difference in recoil makes a noticeable difference in spotting shots.

8.5lb riles-

6cm 120gr= 11 ft-lbs
25CM 135gr= 13 ft-lbs

16% more recoil


6UM 120gr= 19 ft-lbs
25UM 135gr= 22 ft-lbs

15% more recoil and in cartridges like these it matters, as the 6UM is already at the limit of spotting one’s own shots for good shooters.