Horse or Mule?
- Thread starter Matt5266
- Start date
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- 9,182
Two years ago, I went down this rabbit hole as a late-onset equine owner. I didn't have a clue… still don't. I talked to many outfitters and people who have used stock in the backcountry their whole lives. I had a long talk with an old timer I met in the Selway years ago when I first met him. He had all horses but switched to all mules over the last twenty years. Long story short, most of them told me the same things. Mules generally eat less, drink less, browse more, and are more sure-footed in the woods. They also have more working years. So I landed on mules, which takes you down the path of finding a good mule… There are lots of sleazy mules traders out there. I learned the hard way to always ride animals before buying. Finding a good trail horse is cheaper than finding a good trail mule. But after a little trial and error, I have a good mule, a young decent mule in training, and looking for one more.
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roosiebull
WKR
What Brooks said. Use "Good" horses or mules and either will suffice quite nicely. Everyone talks about the "surefootedness" of mules and there's something to that. That said they can fall off a trail just like a horse.
Mules are a little less prone to lunge or run uphill. You can get them to walk uphill a little easier. IMO, the whole "sure-footedness" thing is because a mules foot is just too small for their body and they know it. They're real careful about where they put their feet (small foot supporting big weight). Hooves are tough but they still need shoes in the mountains. If you have anything that resembles a wreck, a mule often will just sit there and wait for you to help. Sometimes they'll lay there as act like they're dead. Although a mule can be any size, because they're half donkey, they tend to be more medium-sized which is good for packing and mountain riding. Mules mature mentally, much slower than a horse so they can be quite immature and ringy when youngish. IMO, when young, they take quite a bit longer to train, and you'll need a heavy dose of patience. They're always thinking... that can be good or less-good depending on the mule. A mule can quite easily decide it's not going to do something and it can take a lot of patience to get them past it and train that out of them. I'll reiterate, a lot of time and patience and that's much better addressed when you have plenty of time and don't need to be anywhere. You don't just put the key in and go when they're young and in training. That said, when they get it, they got it for good and the investment in time and training is well worth it if you want a "good" mule. Actually, it's imperative.
Horses mature, both mentally and physically quicker. You can start ground training a horse younger and get pretty quick results although many a horse has been ruined by starting them to early. By 4 they can be quite handy and you can get them to do about anything. But, a horse can be more reactive to things. It has a lot to do with the horse (breeding) and maybe more importantly, the trainer. They can freak out and somehow all that training appears to go right out the window. It actually doesn't but an undesirable incident can make it look that way. They always want to use their momentum going uphill and that's aggravating. Packing meat/leading a horse out of the steeps can be a bit more problematic because you take short steps and they take big steps. They also prefer to lunge uphill and use their momentum, thereby pushing past you. A horse in trouble might be more likely to panic and not stop panicking until it has no other option but to stop. Depends on the horse.
I've been scared and hurt on horses and scared and hurt on mules. You don't want either in the mountains. In mountains, I'd give the edge to "good" mules. They're a little less lungey, usually a bit more medium sized (which I like) and maybe, because they're less jiggy, take care of a load a little better. That said, a "good" horse can make you think there's no difference at all.
Mules are a little less prone to lunge or run uphill. You can get them to walk uphill a little easier. IMO, the whole "sure-footedness" thing is because a mules foot is just too small for their body and they know it. They're real careful about where they put their feet (small foot supporting big weight). Hooves are tough but they still need shoes in the mountains. If you have anything that resembles a wreck, a mule often will just sit there and wait for you to help. Sometimes they'll lay there as act like they're dead. Although a mule can be any size, because they're half donkey, they tend to be more medium-sized which is good for packing and mountain riding. Mules mature mentally, much slower than a horse so they can be quite immature and ringy when youngish. IMO, when young, they take quite a bit longer to train, and you'll need a heavy dose of patience. They're always thinking... that can be good or less-good depending on the mule. A mule can quite easily decide it's not going to do something and it can take a lot of patience to get them past it and train that out of them. I'll reiterate, a lot of time and patience and that's much better addressed when you have plenty of time and don't need to be anywhere. You don't just put the key in and go when they're young and in training. That said, when they get it, they got it for good and the investment in time and training is well worth it if you want a "good" mule. Actually, it's imperative.
Horses mature, both mentally and physically quicker. You can start ground training a horse younger and get pretty quick results although many a horse has been ruined by starting them to early. By 4 they can be quite handy and you can get them to do about anything. But, a horse can be more reactive to things. It has a lot to do with the horse (breeding) and maybe more importantly, the trainer. They can freak out and somehow all that training appears to go right out the window. It actually doesn't but an undesirable incident can make it look that way. They always want to use their momentum going uphill and that's aggravating. Packing meat/leading a horse out of the steeps can be a bit more problematic because you take short steps and they take big steps. They also prefer to lunge uphill and use their momentum, thereby pushing past you. A horse in trouble might be more likely to panic and not stop panicking until it has no other option but to stop. Depends on the horse.
I've been scared and hurt on horses and scared and hurt on mules. You don't want either in the mountains. In mountains, I'd give the edge to "good" mules. They're a little less lungey, usually a bit more medium sized (which I like) and maybe, because they're less jiggy, take care of a load a little better. That said, a "good" horse can make you think there's no difference at all.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2023
- Messages
- 877
After a few years of taking the whole Circus Show, I'd pack a camp in with the animals a week or two before I was going to hunt, then backpack in. No animals to tend, hence
less work, less risk of drama, more efficient hunting. Able to keep a lower profile when
in good country. No need to pack any feed. You can pack your saddle horse/mule on the way in, too if you're short of animals.
When I killed something I'd hang the quarters, hike out and bring the animals back in to retrieve the meat and camp.
Then you can take a couple non-horse owning friends and that eliminates them needing a ride or being capable of riding.
A big pack string is romantic and looks cool but it's not all it's cracked up to be.
One man with just two animals can do a lot.
less work, less risk of drama, more efficient hunting. Able to keep a lower profile when
in good country. No need to pack any feed. You can pack your saddle horse/mule on the way in, too if you're short of animals.
When I killed something I'd hang the quarters, hike out and bring the animals back in to retrieve the meat and camp.
Then you can take a couple non-horse owning friends and that eliminates them needing a ride or being capable of riding.
A big pack string is romantic and looks cool but it's not all it's cracked up to be.
One man with just two animals can do a lot.
Live_weighT34
Lil-Rokslider
Ride the horse, pack the mules IMO. Granted I grew up in a horse & rodeo family so I may be biased. If you’re “new” to mountain stock mules are a pretty good starting point though, they do tend to be more level headed and as Ryan said, use less feed, water and are generally a “healthier” animal overall and they tend to be useable later in life than even the best horses.
Beendare
WKR
Wayne Carlton [RIP] tells a good mule story;
He starts by saying he was always a horse guy but for some reason [ I can't remember why exactly] he was riding a friends mules coming off a mountain one night from a camp. It was a trail they had used a bunch so the animals knew the way but it seems there were a bunch of downed trees from the storm so they had to loop around a bit.
He came to a downed log and tried to spur the mule over it- no dice. He said it was pitch black....couldn't see your hand in front of your face....and it was pouring rain. He thought, "Dang Mule" as he didn't want to have to get off and lead it....but he did. He stepped over the log and slid down a muddy embankment that surely could have killed him and the animal. He still had ahold of the reins so he knickered and the mule backed up towing him out of the hole.
Carlton said, "Thats when I sold my horses and became a Mule guy"
He starts by saying he was always a horse guy but for some reason [ I can't remember why exactly] he was riding a friends mules coming off a mountain one night from a camp. It was a trail they had used a bunch so the animals knew the way but it seems there were a bunch of downed trees from the storm so they had to loop around a bit.
He came to a downed log and tried to spur the mule over it- no dice. He said it was pitch black....couldn't see your hand in front of your face....and it was pouring rain. He thought, "Dang Mule" as he didn't want to have to get off and lead it....but he did. He stepped over the log and slid down a muddy embankment that surely could have killed him and the animal. He still had ahold of the reins so he knickered and the mule backed up towing him out of the hole.
Carlton said, "Thats when I sold my horses and became a Mule guy"
Pony Soldier
WKR
Growing up there were no mules for sale or even in use except for the forest service. The exception was a number of mules that were wintered on some ranches because we didn't get much snow.
In later years and even recent, I experienced / observed some real damage done by mules to their handlers. Almost vengence attacks. It caused a level caution.
For my use I have noted the differance between the cowboys that are attracted to hot (easily excitable) horses and packers with steady and predictable stock. The old ranch quarter horses were good but as they got bred into more performance based ponies, I saw more horse wrecks and calamities.
Lately there is quite a bit of a push to draft crosses as they are quite mellow but at 16-17 hands they can be a challenge to get on and pack.
Mules aren't purebred and half of that animal is a horse. I've never seen a reference to mule breeding. Just like horses they can be mellow to hot.
I have grown to like morgans to morgan crosses with gaited breeds for smooth rides and faster walking speeds. I'm sure similar issues should be considered in mules.
As I am inclined to cover10-20 miles a day for over 30 days, I want to ride the smoothest critter I can find with the least potential for a blowup or a wreck.
In your search for a wilderness partner, I urge you to select carefully what matches your personality and needs.
In later years and even recent, I experienced / observed some real damage done by mules to their handlers. Almost vengence attacks. It caused a level caution.
For my use I have noted the differance between the cowboys that are attracted to hot (easily excitable) horses and packers with steady and predictable stock. The old ranch quarter horses were good but as they got bred into more performance based ponies, I saw more horse wrecks and calamities.
Lately there is quite a bit of a push to draft crosses as they are quite mellow but at 16-17 hands they can be a challenge to get on and pack.
Mules aren't purebred and half of that animal is a horse. I've never seen a reference to mule breeding. Just like horses they can be mellow to hot.
I have grown to like morgans to morgan crosses with gaited breeds for smooth rides and faster walking speeds. I'm sure similar issues should be considered in mules.
As I am inclined to cover10-20 miles a day for over 30 days, I want to ride the smoothest critter I can find with the least potential for a blowup or a wreck.
In your search for a wilderness partner, I urge you to select carefully what matches your personality and needs.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2023
- Messages
- 877
Pony Soldier hit on a good point to consider. Walking speed.
Two animals with different natural walking speeds are a
PITA.
A couple other considerations:
Black horses draw more flies in hot weather.
White horses are easier to find in the dark.
There's no bad color for a good horse.
Two animals with different natural walking speeds are a
PITA.
A couple other considerations:
Black horses draw more flies in hot weather.
White horses are easier to find in the dark.
There's no bad color for a good horse.
Pony Soldier
WKR
A buckskin or palomino looks like an elk in elk country. I like bays or greys if I am picking colors.
roosiebull
WKR
There is a buckskin at the barn that tricks me regularly, when she is back near the tree line, she looks like the first elk coming out of the timber, and I know she’s there.
There are a few palaminos there too, and they would trick me too if there weren’t horses always out there. It always reminds me of the guys out during rifle elk season wearing the elk colored carhartts. They trust people more than I do. A buckskin or palamino in elk country makes me nervous. The general population of people doesn’t seem to be getting smarter… I’m reminded of this daily driving into town
I been on good horses and good mules hunting. Would happily ride either, operative word is good. I do prefer the mule, smoother gait and more sure footed on average.
An old mule skinner told me the difference is a horse will try to kill you every once in a while and almost always fails. A mule will wait 20 years and get the job done the first time.
An old mule skinner told me the difference is a horse will try to kill you every once in a while and almost always fails. A mule will wait 20 years and get the job done the first time.
azsupercub
FNG
Ours turned all mule quite some time ago. I think at the time, the most compelling reason was a bad back. Because a 14h mule (all the higher than I carry to lift gear) will generally out pack a similar sized horse, and most any mule will generally be a smoother ride than most any horse at pretty much any gait. And also because as stated above mules generally, eat and drink less in both quantity and quality, probably the not as pressing in ID, but down here in the desert SW, it's a worthy consideration.
But the most important word in all of that IMHO is 'generally' because mules... and horses, for that matter, come in so many flavors that you really need to compare individuals examples to have a very meaningful comparison. Out of our current half dozen, even though they're all mules, they're all incredibly unique.
A couple of mule cliff notes;
If you navigate rocky, technical, single tracks, watch a good mule do this sometime. They are head down, looking at where their foot is going. Most horses are looking out ahead at the trail.
For those with less or no equine experience, it is infinitely easier to find anything 'horse' than 'mule'. Take a vet or farrier, for example, because a new owner probably shouldn't be trimming, shoeing, or doctoring their own. Many 'horse' farriers won't touch a mule, and most would ruin their feet if they did. They are not horse feet. They need to be stood up.
Also as pointed out above, mules mature slower, but that's in every facet. Not only do their knees close slower, but their minds mature slower as well. Adolescent age doesn't go away as quickly. A mule can be well trained at 3-4, and do all the cool arena stuff, but (s)he'll still do goofy colt stuff at 7-8 in the sticks. Meaning a beginner rider really needs a more seasoned mule, lest they be left afoot when a bush turns into a boogeyman. Truly bombproof usually doesn't appear until 12-13. This doesn't mean they can't be ridden or trained to do spectacular things at a young age. It just means their confidence is slower in maturing, so until then, it's going to be heavily dependent on your confidence.
As stated above, a mule is going to have to 'accept' you as lead, which is an exercise in building trust. But when (s)he does, they're also going to 'expect' that role of you, and consequently, anyone you allow to handle them. Asking someone low on confidence to handle a younger mule who is looking at them to be the leader is a wreck looking for a place to happen. This is true no matter their prior equine experience, I have watched horseman, farriers and vets have situations snowball, just because the mule knew they were concerned (read; scared), and consequently there must be something they should be watchy about as well. The old adage green on green = black and blue, was never more true than on a mule.
As far as sleezy horse (mule) traders goes, well... I guess there are slobs in all walks of life, and certainly horse traders peddling mules are not immune, but my experience has been that like many things in life, most good mules sell by word of mouth, with no salesmanship involved. You can spend a pretty penny at any one of a number of mule auctions on a dolled up, aced up, watchy wrek looking for a place to happen, or conversely a wore out park mule dead head... best advice here for someone shopping with less mule experience would be to find a mule mentor that shares the same mission scope and lifestyle with their mules and make friends. If you're not making your own, good mules will be harder to find than good horses because there are less of them out there. Conversely, with no inbreeding available, it's my opinion that there are probably fewer bad mules out there than bad horses as well.
Here's a good one to contemplate:
Turning the generalizations around to the owner, it is very easy, maybe even common for a horse owner to be an arse, personality wise, and still be successful in other aspects of life. A mule just won't put up with much bullshizz. In fact, BS is IMHO what makes bad mules. An asshat will soon rid himself of mules or fix his poor attitude (at least around his stock). I find my own chronic case of assholiosis vastly improves with more time spent around ours.
If you've been to Bishop, Clark, or any of the other big mule shin digs, you've seen all kinds of mules doing all kinds of things. In fact, a trip to Bishop should be required reading for people considering mules, but I digress...
So I guess circling back to the OP, my answer would be either... horse or mule, just make them one's with appropriate lines and temperament for the mission. There is so much overlap that either one selected well will do your job well. The real differences are idiosyncrasies that come down to personalities of both keeper and beast an take a well-rounded horseman to appreciate, but a well-rounded horseman will bring the best out in either and do well. Well rounded being key, because the average horseman is not a muleman.
Did I mention mine are all mules?
Take care,
Rob
But the most important word in all of that IMHO is 'generally' because mules... and horses, for that matter, come in so many flavors that you really need to compare individuals examples to have a very meaningful comparison. Out of our current half dozen, even though they're all mules, they're all incredibly unique.
A couple of mule cliff notes;
If you navigate rocky, technical, single tracks, watch a good mule do this sometime. They are head down, looking at where their foot is going. Most horses are looking out ahead at the trail.
For those with less or no equine experience, it is infinitely easier to find anything 'horse' than 'mule'. Take a vet or farrier, for example, because a new owner probably shouldn't be trimming, shoeing, or doctoring their own. Many 'horse' farriers won't touch a mule, and most would ruin their feet if they did. They are not horse feet. They need to be stood up.
Also as pointed out above, mules mature slower, but that's in every facet. Not only do their knees close slower, but their minds mature slower as well. Adolescent age doesn't go away as quickly. A mule can be well trained at 3-4, and do all the cool arena stuff, but (s)he'll still do goofy colt stuff at 7-8 in the sticks. Meaning a beginner rider really needs a more seasoned mule, lest they be left afoot when a bush turns into a boogeyman. Truly bombproof usually doesn't appear until 12-13. This doesn't mean they can't be ridden or trained to do spectacular things at a young age. It just means their confidence is slower in maturing, so until then, it's going to be heavily dependent on your confidence.
As stated above, a mule is going to have to 'accept' you as lead, which is an exercise in building trust. But when (s)he does, they're also going to 'expect' that role of you, and consequently, anyone you allow to handle them. Asking someone low on confidence to handle a younger mule who is looking at them to be the leader is a wreck looking for a place to happen. This is true no matter their prior equine experience, I have watched horseman, farriers and vets have situations snowball, just because the mule knew they were concerned (read; scared), and consequently there must be something they should be watchy about as well. The old adage green on green = black and blue, was never more true than on a mule.
As far as sleezy horse (mule) traders goes, well... I guess there are slobs in all walks of life, and certainly horse traders peddling mules are not immune, but my experience has been that like many things in life, most good mules sell by word of mouth, with no salesmanship involved. You can spend a pretty penny at any one of a number of mule auctions on a dolled up, aced up, watchy wrek looking for a place to happen, or conversely a wore out park mule dead head... best advice here for someone shopping with less mule experience would be to find a mule mentor that shares the same mission scope and lifestyle with their mules and make friends. If you're not making your own, good mules will be harder to find than good horses because there are less of them out there. Conversely, with no inbreeding available, it's my opinion that there are probably fewer bad mules out there than bad horses as well.
Here's a good one to contemplate:
Turning the generalizations around to the owner, it is very easy, maybe even common for a horse owner to be an arse, personality wise, and still be successful in other aspects of life. A mule just won't put up with much bullshizz. In fact, BS is IMHO what makes bad mules. An asshat will soon rid himself of mules or fix his poor attitude (at least around his stock). I find my own chronic case of assholiosis vastly improves with more time spent around ours.
If you've been to Bishop, Clark, or any of the other big mule shin digs, you've seen all kinds of mules doing all kinds of things. In fact, a trip to Bishop should be required reading for people considering mules, but I digress...
So I guess circling back to the OP, my answer would be either... horse or mule, just make them one's with appropriate lines and temperament for the mission. There is so much overlap that either one selected well will do your job well. The real differences are idiosyncrasies that come down to personalities of both keeper and beast an take a well-rounded horseman to appreciate, but a well-rounded horseman will bring the best out in either and do well. Well rounded being key, because the average horseman is not a muleman.
Did I mention mine are all mules?
Take care,
Rob
missjordan
WKR
I have no experience with mules but would love to own one someday with an excellent education.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Having mules for 20+ years it’s kinda crazy the differences between mule and some horse owners. Mule owners love good horse and mules because they know to have great mules you have to have great mares. Some horse owners look down their noses at mules. A pretty broad generalization. And my favorite mules have incredibly personalities that horses don’t seem to have.
EastHumboldt
WKR
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2020
- Messages
- 1,351
I’ve been around other peoples mules, never had any of my own. My impressions agree with most here that they have personality differences as described above. Obviously a bad horse or mule is a dangerous critter.
I owned horses for about twenty years and used them for pleasure riding and about 10-15 days out of the year for hunting/packing. Haven’t had any for about 15 years. I have three BIG takeaways from these experiences.
1). For the amount of money I spent on having my own horses I could have two guided hunts a year or four drop camps. If your lifestyle is built around horses and you have them anyway, sure teach em to pack. But it’s absolutely not worth it financially to acquire pack stock if you only use them a few weeks of the year. The other thing is how much having pack stock in camp takes time and attention away from actual hunting.
2) Nowadays I pay an outfitter to drop me in a wilderness and come get me ten days later. It’s much more relaxing for me, and I like to walk so it works out.
3) if you’re gonna have horses or mules to use in the mountains, you gotta spend a lot of time with them in the mountains throughout the year to maintain both training and conditioning.
I owned horses for about twenty years and used them for pleasure riding and about 10-15 days out of the year for hunting/packing. Haven’t had any for about 15 years. I have three BIG takeaways from these experiences.
1). For the amount of money I spent on having my own horses I could have two guided hunts a year or four drop camps. If your lifestyle is built around horses and you have them anyway, sure teach em to pack. But it’s absolutely not worth it financially to acquire pack stock if you only use them a few weeks of the year. The other thing is how much having pack stock in camp takes time and attention away from actual hunting.
2) Nowadays I pay an outfitter to drop me in a wilderness and come get me ten days later. It’s much more relaxing for me, and I like to walk so it works out.
3) if you’re gonna have horses or mules to use in the mountains, you gotta spend a lot of time with them in the mountains throughout the year to maintain both training and conditioning.
Pony Soldier
WKR
I think another issue is your type of hunting. If you put a remote camp in and then hunt on foot out of it horses are rentals at best.
If your method is focused on reginal hunts where you hunt miles on horseback daily, then your horses or mules are an integral part of your program and your success.
It is relatively easy for the locals but it becomes more of a challenge for the NR. In nearly 60 years of hunting, I have only seen NR hunters on horses once and never any residents and I am rarely more than 3-5 miles off the main road. That instance I met some gents from Arizona that had generators running in the campground to operate the electric blankets for their ponies so they didn't freeze.
If your method is focused on reginal hunts where you hunt miles on horseback daily, then your horses or mules are an integral part of your program and your success.
It is relatively easy for the locals but it becomes more of a challenge for the NR. In nearly 60 years of hunting, I have only seen NR hunters on horses once and never any residents and I am rarely more than 3-5 miles off the main road. That instance I met some gents from Arizona that had generators running in the campground to operate the electric blankets for their ponies so they didn't freeze.
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