Cliff Grays Podcast with Aaron Davidson

[wind gypsy]

Listened to the Rokcast with Aaron D on the way home from a hunt last weekend. I find Aaron's responses particularly refreshing in a world of PC and Corporatized non-answers.

The "cheek weld" conversation was great and I get annoyed by added weight for adj cheep pieces too (seekins gen 3, looking at you).

I'm still not a fan of the marketing that leads to people thinking they bought competence while having no idea of their odds at hitting a target at extended distances.

22 Creedmoor and other significantly overbore cartridge talk was of interest too. Seems to align with my admittedly very small sample size of the more modest cartridges being more predictable/consistent.

 

[LongWayAround]

I gave it two tries to get through it.

While that guy definitely knows more than I do, I couldn't help but think of what an arrogant prick he sounded like.

I did get a kick out of some of his responses, but the overall picture wasn't something that made me think I would ever buy his products.

 

[wind gypsy]

He didn't even come off as arrogant to me. Maybe it has something to do with generally agreeing or disagreeing with what he was saying?

 

[LongWayAround]

He didn't even come off as arrogant to me. Maybe it has something to do with generally agreeing disagreeing with what he was saying?

I actually found most of his points to be fairly agreeable.

I thought his dismissal of the drop tests sounded like he didn't actually know what Form did to try and control variables but that is a small point.

Mainly, it gets to your third paragraph in your previous post. The purchase of competence. The guy obviously built a very successful business and I am sure that it requires a strong personality.

 

[wind gypsy]

Mainly, it gets to your third paragraph in your previous post. The purchase of competence. The guy obviously built a very successful business and I am sure that it requires a strong personality.

I thought a bit about this too. I've read people discuss the rich gunwerks customer who shows up to a guided hunts and doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground but thinks he can shoot a long ways because he bought the expensive "system". BUT, i thought of the few guys i actually know that bought gunwerks rifles and they are exactly what Aaron described. Hard working, successful dudes who also are above average marksmen and hunters. One went to gunwerks school a time or two, the other is a long time friend who shoots matches with me occasionally. There's a couple frequent posters on this and other forums I know have them that I also dont believe fit the "ignorant rich guy" caricature. So while I still dont like the marketing, my first hand exposure to actual owners isn't that bad and suggests his point that his customers aren't all the "rich dufus" made some sense.

 

[JGRaider]

They may not be a "rich dufous", but they're just not informed enough to know they can do the exact same thing for way less money.

 

[Timjohnson11]

I gave it two tries to get through it.

While that guy definitely knows more than I do, I couldn't help but think of what an arrogant prick he sounded like.

I hear the opposite when listenting to him. Yes, he's clearly confident but Aaron is one of the few people in that industry that isn't afraid of making changes, admitting wrongs, and consistently seeking perfection. He threw himself and his company under the bus multiple times in the podcast in the name of improvement/change/innovation.. To me, those actions don't align with being an arrogant prick.

 

[ckleeves]

They may not be a "rich dufous", but they're just not informed enough to know they can do the exact same thing for way less money.

I always thought the same thing until I guided a Gunwerks rifle owner a few years ago. It’s a completely different mindset than I have, if something takes me a few hours and saves me a few bucks I’m 100% gonna do it. For other guys performing a 1 hour surgery pays enough that they can have someone do custom reloads, mount a scope and get it zeroed and still have money left over.

I get it, I hate reloading and unfortunately do tons of it and it eats a ton of my free time up. But if I could go work an hour of OT and come home to a box on my doorstep that cost me much less then I made in that hour and saved me a couple hours in the loading room I would jump on it.

Convenience has a price and people value their time much differently depending on their tax bracket.

 

[Jhconnected]

The dude is knowledgeable and confident. It may come off as arrogance to some.

It’s refreshing to hear him talk about the optics industry and how it really works. He has done this in Gunwerks podcasts as well.

He did indirectly talk about the RS drop tests specifically talking about using the gun as the test bed. He specifically mentioned hitting the barrel and the barrel joint moving or bending the scope rings (neither of which could happen and you not know).

Also, incompetence knows no income bracket. Sure, they may be rich but there are plenty of broke ass tikka wielding bubbas shooting Kentucky Windage waaaay past where they should. The “rich guys” could get a tikka, drop it in a rokstock, get their SWFA scope and do all the steps in the RS kool aid playbook. But, some people either don’t have the time to do it bc of jobs, kids, etc or just want it put together seamlessly. They may also go the GW route bc they get a tested setup whereas the DIY version doesn’t guarantee a quality build.

 

[Jhconnected]

I always thought the same thing until I guided a Gunwerks rifle owner a few years ago. It’s a completely different mindset than I have, if something takes me a few hours and saves me a few bucks I’m 100% gonna do it. For other guys performing a 1 hour surgery pays enough that they can have someone do custom reloads, mount a scope and get it zeroed and still have money left over.

I get it, I hate reloading and unfortunately do tons of it and it eats a ton of my free time up. But if I could go work an hour of OT and come home to a box on my doorstep that cost me much less then I made in that hour and saved me a couple hours in the loading room I would jump on it.

Convenience has a price and people value their time much differently depending on their tax bracket.

The value of time is very forgotten in these conversations. It’s the same reason why people pay to have their lawn mowed. Sure, anyone can get the equipment and do it and eventually save money. But, the value of the time saved which is spent doing other things (like practice and range time…highly preached on this forum) seems to be forgotten. Also, a lot of times paying the man gets you a better product at the end.

 

[NSI]

Footage resulting from hunts immediately after and associated with the gunwerks shooting schools has been posted publicly by gunwerks, and should disabuse anyone of the notion that the brand of training being provided there results in ethical hunting practice. That includes when such hunts are operated on their weapons systems and under their direct supervision immediately after training in the same environment. See my earlier thread about the size of the cone exceeding the size of the animal.

I like Aaron, I'm glad he's (actually) innovating (which I'm not), I think he's more aligned with where this industry needs to be than 90% of other mfgs, and I thought the podcast was well executed.

-J

 

[wind gypsy]

The value of time is very forgotten in these conversations. It’s the same reason why people pay to have their lawn mowed. Sure, anyone can get the equipment and do it and eventually save money. But, the value of the time saved which is spent doing other things (like practice and range time…highly preached on this forum) seems to be forgotten. Also, a lot of times paying the man gets you a better product at the end.

To me it's not so much a discussion of time. It's a discussion of understanding what causes bullets to do different things over distance and having a general idea of odds of hitting something at a given distance. Without validating a ballistic profile or doing some work oneself, they are less likely to understand when "the system" might not be gnats ass when something externally changes from where it was validated.

What does the imaginary gunwerks system buyer do to troubleshoot issues when they arise?

 

[wind gypsy]

Footage resulting from hunts immediately after and associated with the gunwerks shooting schools has been posted publicly by gunwerks, and should disabuse anyone of the notion that the brand of training being provided there results in ethical hunting practice. That includes when such hunts are operated on their weapons systems and under their direct supervision immediately after training in the same environment. See my earlier thread about the size of the cone exceeding the size of the animal.

I like Aaron, I'm glad he's (actually) innovating (which I'm not), I think he's more aligned with where this industry needs to be than 90% of other mfgs, and I thought the podcast was well executed.

-J

Well said.

 

[willfrye027]

The dude is knowledgeable and confident. It may come off as arrogance to some.

It’s refreshing to hear him talk about the optics industry and how it really works. He has done this in Gunwerks podcasts as well.

He did indirectly talk about the RS drop tests specifically talking about using the gun as the test bed. He specifically mentioned hitting the barrel and the barrel joint moving or bending the scope rings (neither of which could happen and you not know).

Also, incompetence knows no income bracket. Sure, they may be rich but there are plenty of broke ass tikka wielding bubbas shooting Kentucky Windage waaaay past where they should. The “rich guys” could get a tikka, drop it in a rokstock, get their SWFA scope and do all the steps in the RS kool aid playbook. But, some people either don’t have the time to do it bc of jobs, kids, etc or just want it put together seamlessly. They may also go the GW route bc they get a tested setup whereas the DIY version doesn’t guarantee a quality build.

Chased my tail tracking down a shifting zero, which turned out to be inadequate torque of the barrel on the action.

It also takes a lot to learn in detail about how to set up a reliable system..what scopes work, rings, how to degrease everything, etc. it’s not only a lot of time but a lot of knowledge, and a lot of trial and error to get it right.

It makes perfect sense to me why these guys are willing to pay for the Gunwerks “system”. Same reason I pay to get my oil changed. I’m not into cars, don’t really care to learn how to change my own oil, and don’t mind paying someone else to do it for me.

 

[NSI]

Chased my tail tracking down a shifting zero, which turned out to be inadequate torque of the barrel on the action.

It also takes a lot to learn in detail about how to set up a reliable system..what scopes work, rings, how to degrease everything, etc. it’s not only a lot of time but a lot of knowledge, and a lot of trial and error to get it right.

It makes perfect sense to me why these guys are willing to pay for the Gunwerks “system”. Same reason I pay to get my oil changed. I’m not into cars, don’t really care to learn how to change my own oil, and don’t mind paying someone else to do it for me.

Amplifying this, it's nuts to me that the status quo is actually that an uneducated buyer gathers the scope, rings, and rifle separately (making crucial choices along the way). They then need to properly assemble (non trivial), properly zero (very non trivial), gather data, and extrapolate / organize that data, all before putting the "system" into practice.

Doing all this for the buyer doesn't have to cost $12,000 (see the old GW Werkman package or anything we sell) but you're all correct about time value of money being a highly personal construct for individual buyers.

-J

 

[willfrye027]

Amplifying this, it's nuts to me that the status quo is actually that an uneducated buyer gathers the scope, rings, and rifle separately (making crucial choices along the way). They then need to properly assemble (non trivial), properly zero (very non trivial), gather data, and extrapolate / organize that data, all before putting the "system" into practice.

Doing all this for the buyer doesn't have to cost $12,000 (see the old GW Werkman package or anything we sell) but you're all correct about time value of money being a highly personal construct for individual buyers.

-J

I should be charging my buddies at this point

After a bunch of trial and error and eventually getting my systems to pass the drop test, I basically set up everything for most of my hunting group.

Sold my cousin a tikka setup and he has not needed to touch the zero in approximately 4 years

But it was a lot of reading, learning, tons of ammo etc to get there.

 

[West2East]

I enjoyed the podcast. I get Aaron seeming arrogant, I guess I live in an atmosphere where arrogance gets conflated with knowledge and confidence. They seem really close but often, I would assume this happens to Aaron. You deal with something for so long and so many times, you don't have the time to waste to convince another person. Also, he's been doing this for years and he's seen his products work, he doesn't have to be humble or cater to everyone's criticisms.
Also, If I could justify a GW rifle and scope, I would. They have been pumping out awesome stuff for years.
I also liked his discussion on the innovation portion.
Good Podcast!

 

[JGRaider]

To me it's not so much a discussion of time. It's a discussion of understanding what causes bullets to do different things over distance and having a general idea of odds of hitting something at a given distance. Without validating a ballistic profile or doing some work oneself, they are less likely to understand when "the system" might not be gnats ass when something externally changes from where it was validated.

What does the imaginary gunwerks system buyer do to troubleshoot issues when they arise?

Excellent question, and precisely why I've never paid anyone to mount a scope, glass bed actions, develop a load, sight in my rifles, etc and never will.

 

[Jhconnected]

Chased my tail tracking down a shifting zero, which turned out to be inadequate torque of the barrel on the action.

It also takes a lot to learn in detail about how to set up a reliable system..what scopes work, rings, how to degrease everything, etc. it’s not only a lot of time but a lot of knowledge, and a lot of trial and error to get it right.

It makes perfect sense to me why these guys are willing to pay for the Gunwerks “system”. Same reason I pay to get my oil changed. I’m not into cars, don’t really care to learn how to change my own oil, and don’t mind paying someone else to do it for me.

I spent 7 years, lots of money on upgrades, ammo and range time on a single rifle to finally realize the gun just doesn’t shoot that well.

 

[Jhconnected]

To me it's not so much a discussion of time. It's a discussion of understanding what causes bullets to do different things over distance and having a general idea of odds of hitting something at a given distance. Without validating a ballistic profile or doing some work oneself, they are less likely to understand when "the system" might not be gnats ass when something externally changes from where it was validated.

What does the imaginary gunwerks system buyer do to troubleshoot issues when they arise?

This can be said about a buyer of any rifle out there. Me, you, Bubba Joe, a doctor, a CEO of some company.

At some point, to be effective, people need to put in some sort of work.

Gunwerks gives you a system you know won’t be a lemon (if it is they’ll fix it). Gunwerks lets you skip the time in building a system (gun, scope, ammo, validation) but not the knowledge or skill.

I’m pretty sure that most of the high end clients, a doctor, someone who worked their way up a company or built one from the ground up know better than anyone “1000 yards out of the box” doesn’t come with just the price of the Gunwerks rifle. Most of those guys probably work harder and longer hours, sacrificed more, busted their ass harder, etc to get to where they’re at more than most of the people on this forum. That’s why they’re at where they’re at. They know what kind of work and knowledge it takes to be successful.

It’s the people who see that marketing and that haven’t had to work for something that scares me more. Their work ethic and understanding of success and how to accomplish it probably aren’t on that level.