Cliff Grays Podcast with Aaron Davidson

I did hear Aaron fault the mounting systems as the usual culprit. And as NF scopes are generally heavier than Leupold, a NF will likely slip more easily given equally inadequate mounting.

As to Aaron’s critique of the drop tests, it sounded to me as he just isn’t aware of how Form controls for the other variables. Permanently bonding the action to the mounting system, for example. And he may be trapped in the lab-thinking. He’s so proud of that contraption that may only be testing recoil-like G forces. There’s certainly value there but that doesn’t cover many other impacts that a systematic empirical method can offer.
 
I may have misheard him but I believe Aaron said that observation was based on sold rifle systems over the years and the number of subsequent issues they had with systems sold with Leupold vs Nightforce scopes, not based on the lab testing.
If that's the case I might argue that the NF customers are more particular/picky than the Leupold customers.
 
I think the point Aaron was making was not specifically to invalidate the drop test itself. He was a fan the way I heard it. The point he was making, my understanding, is that the product of the drop test is a pass/fail on a scope. Yet, it's not a scope specific test, but rather a system level test. Said another way, we don't say the scope lost zero so the Tika failed. The scope lost zero the ammo lot failed. The scope lost zero the UM rings failed. The product is the pass/fail on a scope when many of the variables aren't controlled. His beef, again my understanding, is that it could deep six a manufacturer. I could be completely wrong here also with my take on his point. But as i stated earlier I can see both sides and I personally put more faith in Form's work and opinion than any other data published to date on scope reliability, even though it's based on system level test. Also, Aaron's point seems correct also. It could possibly be improved upon, like everything else in life.
 
it's a glitch in the simulation.... even when I say unknown munitions right now it is coming out "unknown musicians"
jake, i apologize

I like Unknown Magicians better. :)
they all seem to apply though haha

just cracked me up, they do make music, just not traditional music lol, get that clipped into the s2h podcast intro, maybe a little mix down on some rifle shots between unsuppressed and suppressed 'making music', cgi some rocker looks on the guys

the perfect guy accidentally came up with that, guys that know them could get some mileage out of that one, I know I would, 'oh please, sing me another song musician' 'oh boy, here comes the band again' 'lets go make some music boys' show up to meet them wearing a nice rock star t-shirt with them as the band but holding rifles like guitars, 'unknown musicians' in twisted sister lettering, they already got zz top vibes, definitely Jake... I'll lay off the meds now
 
His beef, again my understanding, is that it could deep six a manufacturer.
I get what you're saying, but Leupold and Vortex sure don't seem to be having any issues selling scopes. I think it's starting to filter out into more mainstream hunting content, Meateater did a zero retention video recently. Randy Newberg's channel just did something similar to the cold bore challenge.

The drop tests are definitely having an impact beyond this site, but they're already being kind of adopted, embraced, or co-opted by some of the biggest sponsored content producers. Remains to be seen if that influences the manufacturers in a good direction, or if it gets watered down past the point of being useful.
 
It’s weird that in real life, many guys here have had issues with Leupold and others, that went away when they chose a scope that passed the drop eval. Think about that.
Yeah, that's been the biggest takeaway for myself and a couple other hunters I know. Having issues for years that we assumed were part of the normal frustration, that's just how it works. Then switching to a tested scope and it all vanishes. Boresight, adjust, zero, done.

I guess I can't entirely blame the scopes, it was also mounts, mounting technique, not shooting enough rounds in a group, etc. It's just wild thinking how much time I used to spend chasing my tail, and now it's a total nonissue.
 
hahaha, the full spectrum is covered well, it's a good listen or watch/listen, for us poor diy'ers to the big wallet guys, great points made on that dynamic, lots of 'logic' and 80,000' applied ;)

like Aaron, does't hold back lol, good times, he would be a riot if in full rant mode, I'd sign up to listen/watch haha
 
I get what you're saying, but Leupold and Vortex sure don't seem to be having any issues selling scopes. I think it's starting to filter out into more mainstream hunting content, Meateater did a zero retention video recently. Randy Newberg's channel just did something similar to the cold bore challenge.

The drop tests are definitely having an impact beyond this site, but they're already being kind of adopted, embraced, or co-opted by some of the biggest sponsored content producers. Remains to be seen if that influences the manufacturers in a good direction, or if it gets watered down past the point of being useful.
What's going to happen is Leupold and Vortex will be sponsoring a bunch of drop tests and their influencers will run around repeating and tweaking the tests until they get results that make their sponsors look good and pimp the hell out of those videos. You're not likely to see a Newberg test video with a Leupold failing without some sort of qualification or excuse to silver line it.
 
I haven't listened to the podcast but i did see a clip on social where they felt bad for the guys that couldn't afford a guide and I felt the same.

Ha. "More and better experiences".. I guess. I've paid for a couple nice guided hunts and enjoyed the experiences for sure but they damn sure aren't as rewarding as figuring something out yourself and achieving success from your own research, work, decisions, and actions vs the outfitters.
 
What was everyone's thoughts on his reccomendation for a 6.5CM over a 223 when selecting a trainer rifle? I recently back-ordered a 22 ARC prefit and bolt head from Seekins for my M3, but after listening to Aaron's thoughts on selecting a trainer rifle, perhaps i'm better suited to just leave my 6CM barrel on full time and train with it? Seekins prefits are relatively cheap ($525 for 20" 6CM), there are some decently priced ammo options, and realistically i'm likely to get in 2+ years of training hunting assuming my recent trend of ~50 rounds per month. Thoughts?
 
What was everyone's thoughts on his reccomendation for a 6.5CM over a 223 when selecting a trainer rifle? I recently back-ordered a 22 ARC prefit and bolt head from Seekins for my M3, but after listening to Aaron's thoughts on selecting a trainer rifle, perhaps i'm better suited to just leave my 6CM barrel on full time and train with it? Seekins prefits are relatively cheap ($525 for 20" 6CM), there are some decently priced ammo options, and realistically i'm likely to get in 2+ years of training hunting assuming my recent trend of ~50 rounds per month. Thoughts?

Probably makes sense to just get the volume on that one vs dealing with swapping back and forth. Main thing i find nice with "trainer" rifles is having 2 configured similarly so if its hot outside and your barrel/cans are piping hot, you can keep shooting with another similar platform rather than wait for it to cool or deal with awful mirage.
 
What was everyone's thoughts on his reccomendation for a 6.5CM over a 223 when selecting a trainer rifle? I recently back-ordered a 22 ARC prefit and bolt head from Seekins for my M3, but after listening to Aaron's thoughts on selecting a trainer rifle, perhaps i'm better suited to just leave my 6CM barrel on full time and train with it? Seekins prefits are relatively cheap ($525 for 20" 6CM), there are some decently priced ammo options, and realistically i'm likely to get in 2+ years of training hunting assuming my recent trend of ~50 rounds per month. Thoughts?
.223 trainer for the 6cm, 6cm trainer for the 6.5cm, 6.5cm trainer for 6.5PRC
I’m only joking but it sort of makes sense. lol
 
I wouldn’t mess with another bolt head, different barrel and different ammo to save your 6 creed. Just practice with it, shoot it out and buy another 6 creed barrel
 
What was everyone's thoughts on his reccomendation for a 6.5CM over a 223 when selecting a trainer rifle? I recently back-ordered a 22 ARC prefit and bolt head from Seekins for my M3, but after listening to Aaron's thoughts on selecting a trainer rifle, perhaps i'm better suited to just leave my 6CM barrel on full time and train with it? Seekins prefits are relatively cheap ($525 for 20" 6CM), there are some decently priced ammo options, and realistically i'm likely to get in 2+ years of training hunting assuming my recent trend of ~50 rounds per month. Thoughts?

Meh.

.223 is cheap enough to get reps in and has enough recoil to keep you honest. Cheap enough to buy larger volume of same lot of ammo= less dickering

22ARC would be sweet too, but double the price on ammo. If you only shoot 50 rounds a month no big deal. You start burning through 500 rounds or more…

In my limited experience no one wants to grab a 6.5CM for 200 back to back rounds, if they do I suspect recoil will quickly detract from learning. Plus the barrel heats up faster on 6/6.5CM so that slows things down too.

My usual shooting as of late is mostly the .223 alternating w whatever “main” gun is out.
 
What's going to happen is Leupold and Vortex will be sponsoring a bunch of drop tests and their influencers will run around repeating and tweaking the tests until they get results that make their sponsors look good and pimp the hell out of those videos. You're not likely to see a Newberg test video with a Leupold failing without some sort of qualification or excuse to silver line it.
Totally. The Meateater "drop test" was pretty weak already. They didn't start with a real zero, just kinda hit paper and then tossed the gun around for awhile.
 
Ha. "More and better experiences".. I guess. I've paid for a couple nice guided hunts and enjoyed the experiences for sure but they damn sure aren't as rewarding as figuring something out yourself and achieving success from your own research, work, decisions, and actions vs the outfitters.
Choosing to avoid people at all costs like myself I fully understand that side. I don't even need a dog for company, I can talk to myself with the best in the loony bin and be just as happy as they are lol. Despite being able to socialize well and invited repeatedly to many social things by folks that know me and wish I was more social lol...the flip side is some people much more social and prefer the full experience of camp life with others and meeting new people etc. Layered on that, guys may be too busy in other things they are good at and cannot find the time to play double decade long draw tag management, hunt planning, etc. etc. but make plenty of bank such that it makes most sense for them to trade services with others that way. What the point being made was, not a single option is wrong or to be looked down upon, that it's irrational, petty, jealousy or whatever. You think guys that specialize in other things in life need to make shooting or hunting their specialty also? Can you specialize to top levels in how many things in your life? Or can they buy up as much curve to success as possible then put in the time they do have with good equipment and people to get further up the curve quicker instead of starting from the bottom, do we think those guys that spend more than do don't care enough about success out there to do what they can? They are doing what they can is the point and why would anyone look at that any differently?

Anyway, paraphrasing somewhat but it goes to points like I made in the Wyoming long range debate where we micro go after each other between hunters in so many fractional ways, bows vs gun guys, bait/no bait, dogs/no dogs, eat only/predator management also....it's endless how we think we're better than another guy at this that or the other. He has issue with that....so do i. We all should. There's no I in team, teamwork makes the dream work type sh1t. Fire up the podcast or YouTube and then see what you think when you heard it all.
 
Ha. "More and better experiences".. I guess. I've paid for a couple nice guided hunts and enjoyed the experiences for sure but they damn sure aren't as rewarding as figuring something out yourself and achieving success from your own research, work, decisions, and actions vs the outfitters.

That little part really stood out to me as well. Not to get all scienc-ey on it, but the longer and harder you struggle at something, the more rewarding it is when you do succeed. It’s the basics of how dopamine works. To each their own, but that “just pay for it” mentality is quite literally destroying a portion of the satisfaction those guys are receiving from the hobby. You can shortcut your way into success, but you cannot shortcut your way into the reward of deep satisfaction.


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That little part really stood out to me as well. Not to get all scienc-ey on it, but the longer and harder you struggle at something, the more rewarding it is when you do succeed. It’s the basics of how dopamine works. To each their own, but that “just pay for it” mentality is quite literally destroying a portion of the satisfaction those guys are receiving from the hobby. You can shortcut your way into success, but you cannot shortcut your way into the reward of deep satisfaction.


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Which they may get from other things they specialize in life.

And hunting they pay for could just be a wonderful and challenging 'vacation with goals' for them?

Who are any of us to not only assume, but worse demand, that they go for the exact same satisfaction levels another may get who is 100% diy everything from shooting to hunting?

See? It's a 'you do you, I'll do me' sort of thing. How do you know they aren't more satisfied than you or I???? They might be 100x more satisfied after a hunt than you or me hahaha.

WHO CARES, it only matters to me how I feel about things I do lol. AND, I hope that any other guy no matter his level of shooting/hunting experience has the absolute best time afield and wish them nothing but success. But that's me doing me... ;)
 
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