BLM on two corners with Private on the other two, ok to cross corner?

[BuzzH]

If you are on foot and have some type of GPS tracking device that you can show you crossed at the corner a game warden won't cite you unless you area violating some other rules. If the landowner calls the county sheriff they will cite you for criminal trespassing. Game wardens generally only issue citations for hunting violations and where I'm at they don't consider corner hoping a hunting violation. The Sherriff is a different deal.

Show a case in Wyoming where corner crossing was ever successfully prosecuted...

I can show you a case where a judge found in favor of a hunter that corner crossed in Albany County.

 

[BuzzH]

I have witnessed 4 individuals corner hop and get tickets in wyoming. I believe the GW only cited the 2 who had rifles for the trespass. No idea how it went in court.

I smell rags burning...its your pants on fire.

Wardens in WY have been instructed to not cite for corner crossing...I don't believe your story.

 

[wapitibob]

I have witnessed 4 individuals corner hop and get tickets in wyoming. I believe the GW only cited the 2 who had rifles for the trespass. No idea how it went in court.

A wyoming game warden can't cite an individual for trespass via "corner crossing". A warden can only cite for Chapter 23 violations, ie if the individual hunts on private land. As I said before, all these "my buddy got a ticket" are cases where people are hunting on private land. The warden that told me to keep a track had earlier written tickets to hunters who said they "corner crossed". Their gps tracks showed they entered "close" to a corner and went straight into the private.

 

[Laramie]

A wyoming game warden can't cite an individual for trespass via "corner crossing". A warden can only cite for Chapter 23 violations, ie if the individual hunts on private land. As I said before, all these "my buddy got a ticket" are cases where people are hunting on private land. The warden that told me to keep a track had earlier written tickets to hunters who said they "corner crossed". Their gps tracks showed they entered "close" to a corner and went straight into the private.

The game wardens can cite for "intent to hunt on private land". It likely won't hold up, but they can, and have in the past, written the ticket. It then becomes the burden of the hunter to fight the ticket.

As Buzz has stated, they can't, and won't, cite for trespass on a corner crossing.

To avoid the "intent" ticket mentioned above, a guy needs to be well versed and ensure he isn't showing any indications of hunting on private. Documenting the crossing would be a great idea.

If the Landowner call the sheriff, he could issue a citation for criminal trespass. While that is unlikely, it might depend on what landowners owned property on either side of the corner. Some landowners have more influence than others...

 

[roadrunner]

Guaranteed there is case law out there where discrepancies between two landowners and right-of-way issues concerning fence maintenance have been a "thing"...

I find it impossible for a landowner to prosecute successfully when they themselves are infringing on public land if their precious fence is that close to make you trespass while corner-hoping...

 

[Laramie]

Guaranteed there is case law out there where discrepancies between two landowners and right-of-way issues concerning fence maintenance have been a "thing"...

I find it impossible for a landowner to prosecute successfully when they themselves are infringing on public land if their precious fence is that close to make you trespass while corner-hoping...

Many times there isn't a fence - only a corner marker left by a surveyor.

When there is a fence, it is often the corner post that is shared by all and technically owner by all touching the corner. Remember, most of these ranchers are paying the BLM to graze so therefor have the right to place fences.

Find that case law and share if you are so confident. Most of us don't agree with the idea of landlocked public but it is real and there are real laws preventing us from accessing it. How local LEOs and DAs interpret the and enforce the law is really the only variable. If you have the means and the time to fight it, you will most likely win if you do everything right. Most don't so they are forced to either stay off or pay the fines in the unlikely event they are ticketed.

 

[Coveyleader]

I think if I was going to test this out, I'd do so prior to season to ensure the corner could be found and you know exactly where it's at. Trespassing with a weapon during hunting season is much worse than "oops" just walking around with your dog.

I can guarantee unless there is a fence, you will most likely cross a private line with your phone or GPS without knowing, especially as you get into vertical country and areas with trees.

 

[Broomd]

I can't imagine why a guy couldn't simply walk onto the adjacent BLM corner if he isn't touching private land. What the heck am I missing here?

 

[Legend]

I talked with a District Attorney here in Montana. They said they would NOT prosecute a corner crossing case....even if the sheriff wrote the ticket. Talked with the sheriff and they said to listen to the DA. Called fwp and the first response from a junior employee said it was illegal. I asked to speak to a senior manager and they back peddled and said it was not in their jurisdiction and they would defer to the local sheriff office. MTFWP also claimed they have no written opinion on the corner crossing question.

So....if you want to cross a corner in MT i would have a licensed surveyor set a corner pin. Then call the District Attorney in that county and let them know your plan. Then go ahead and hunt it but know the neighbors may be pissed. I figure if they get too mad you could share the location of the surveyed corner on the internet and invite a bunch of friends.

No reason we shouldn't access public land.

 

[ODB]

I can't imagine why a guy couldn't simply walk onto the adjacent BLM corner if he isn't touching private land. What the heck am I missing here?

airspace, man…airspace.

 

[Broomd]

airspace, man…airspace.

What?!! lol...

 

[ODB]

What?!! lol...

not LOL…read a bit back and you can see how it’s justified.

 

[AZ8]

Millions of acres are blocked off by large outfitters via land owners. These public lands are then used as de facto private ranches for their clients with no public access available.

A lot of these corners are in the middle of bum phuk Egypt with nothing but sage bushes and ravens seen for miles!

 

[BuzzH]

I think if I was going to test this out, I'd do so prior to season to ensure the corner could be found and you know exactly where it's at. Trespassing with a weapon during hunting season is much worse than "oops" just walking around with your dog.

I can guarantee unless there is a fence, you will most likely cross a private line with your phone or GPS without knowing, especially as you get into vertical country and areas with trees.

If there is no pin or no fence, the burden would be on the prosecutor to prove you:

1. Trespassed by not crossing at the corner (which they don't know the exact location of either)

2. That your intention was to trespass on private to hunt (which if you cross at the corner clearly is NOT your intent).

3. Even if there is a fence, the fence may or may not be on the exact corner either. Pretty typical to have fences in place where convenient rather than right on the exact, surveyed corner.

Finally, there was already an AG opinion written in WY on corner crossing at it pertains to hunting trespass...and the opinion was that there is NO intent to hunt private when crossing from one piece of public to another.

 

[Coveyleader]

If there is no pin or no fence, the burden would be on the prosecutor to prove you:

1. Trespassed by not crossing at the corner (which they don't know the exact location of either)

2. That your intention was to trespass on private to hunt (which if you cross at the corner clearly is NOT your intent).

3. Even if there is a fence, the fence may or may not be on the exact corner either. Pretty typical to have fences in place where convenient rather than right on the exact, surveyed corner.

Finally, there was already an AG opinion written in WY on corner crossing at it pertains to hunting trespass...and the opinion was that there is NO intent to hunt private when crossing from one piece of public to another.

I agree with you for the most part, especially on the fence. I'm not sure why I even mentioned that other than the fact it gives you a reference vs nothing out there (even though it could be wrong by a long ways).

My point is, you get a testy land owner, sheriff or DOW guys are there, I'd much rather be there in the summer looking where any kind of error has less ramifications vs there with a bow in hand getting all kinds of different charges thrown at your way and worse yet, dealing with this BS during the season. In Colorado, there are points associated with your license not so while walking your dog.

Also, intent has nothing to do with it. If the landowner or division sees you short cutting a piece of private you will get a ticket. Doesn't matter if you knew or not hence my response of you better know where you are, and a phone or standard GPS isn't what I would call reliable.

 

[Bighorner]

Just curious. For surveyors, how much tolerance is accepted when disputing a property boundary? Any?

If there is a corner set and set correctly it monuments a property corner, that in theory is a point smaller than a head of a pin. In practice the monument may be damaged, set in gross error, or never set at all. But in theory the point is smaller than your body, meaning you cannot cross over it with crossing into private air space.

 

[TSAMP]

A wyoming game warden can't cite an individual for trespass via "corner crossing". A warden can only cite for Chapter 23 violations, ie if the individual hunts on private land. As I said before, all these "my buddy got a ticket" are cases where people are hunting on private land. The warden that told me to keep a track had earlier written tickets to hunters who said they "corner crossed". Their gps tracks showed they entered "close" to a corner and went straight into the private.

So I'm guessing the 2 with the rifles that likely touched private got the tickets. , whatever those were.

 

[roadrunner]

I talked with a District Attorney here in Montana. They said they would NOT prosecute a corner crossing case....even if the sheriff wrote the ticket. Talked with the sheriff and they said to listen to the DA. Called fwp and the first response from a junior employee said it was illegal. I asked to speak to a senior manager and they back peddled and said it was not in their jurisdiction and they would defer to the local sheriff office. MTFWP also claimed they have no written opinion on the corner crossing question.

So....if you want to cross a corner in MT i would have a licensed surveyor set a corner pin. Then call the District Attorney in that county and let them know your plan. Then go ahead and hunt it but know the neighbors may be pissed. I figure if they get too mad you could share the location of the surveyed corner on the internet and invite a bunch of friends.

No reason we shouldn't access public land.

Find that case law and share if you are so confident. Most of us don't agree with the idea of landlocked public but it is real and there are real laws preventing us from accessing it. How local LEOs and DAs interpret the and enforce the law is really the only variable. If you have the means and the time to fight it, you will most likely win if you do everything right. Most don't so they are forced to either stay off or pay the fines in the unlikely event they are ticketed.

There you go. Besides, I didn't guarantee anything...

 

[GHOSTofWENDELL]

I know of a piece of land in Northwest MT that is a popular spot for this. Watched a warden have guy unload his quartered out deer into the FWP truck as he came back to his own...just a warning for anyone willing to try.

I think it's BS that all public land in MT doesn't have a public access point.

 

[BuzzH]

I agree with you for the most part, especially on the fence. I'm not sure why I even mentioned that other than the fact it gives you a reference vs nothing out there (even though it could be wrong by a long ways).

My point is, you get a testy land owner, sheriff or DOW guys are there, I'd much rather be there in the summer looking where any kind of error has less ramifications vs there with a bow in hand getting all kinds of different charges thrown at your way and worse yet, dealing with this BS during the season. In Colorado, there are points associated with your license not so while walking your dog.

Also, intent has nothing to do with it. If the landowner or division sees you short cutting a piece of private you will get a ticket. Doesn't matter if you knew or not hence my response of you better know where you are, and a phone or standard GPS isn't what I would call reliable.

Intent absolutely matters, and if you're "short cutting" through private rather than crossing the corner, then that's absolutely trespassing and you should get a ticket for trespassing to hunt. I believe in 100% of the supposed "corner crossing" tickets issued by wardens in Wyoming that is exactly what happened, somebody took a short cut rather than cross at the corner.

But, if you're following the best available technology and have a GPS track showing you crossed at the corner, no warden will write the ticket. Any DA with even one firing brain cell would never try to prosecute it either. The landowner and LEO would also have to be using the same technology in an attempt to "prove" you didn't step over the corner. Which would be impossible to prove without reasonable doubt.

Its also my opinion that a landowner is taking a huge risk by demanding prosecution. If this were go to a higher court, the outcome could be wayyyy more catastrophic to the landowner than the hunting public.

Hunters have nothing to lose by an unfavorable court case on corner crossing...landowners do.