Big 2500 HD to tow junk 100s of miles, then how do you get to trail head?

Grumman

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I drive a 2005 Cummins but don’t think I would ever get a newer diesel with the emissions equipment nowadays. I feel with my fuel mileage my operating costs are lower than a comparable gas. Breakdown maintenance is a different story though with diesels. I’ve been lucky but I’ve had friends pay more for replacing injectors and pumps in their diesels than they would have buying a brand new gas engine.


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sneaky

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Google diesel vs gas cost of ownership. The majority, by far, of what you will find is studies pointing to lower cost of ownership for diesels.
If you keep them long term. My boss trades his in at about 125k or so, so that argument doesn't hold true at all. I drive a Tacoma, he's done more to his new trucks than I've done to my Taco and it has 225k on it now. His 2016 Duramax they lemon lawed. Three different dealerships couldn't fix it, GM told them to give him full value on a trade for a 2017, and that's what he's driving now.

You would have to do practically nothing to a diesel to get the cost of ownership below my Toyota.

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kicker338

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The deff diesel issues are real here guys and not limited to pickup trucks. The place I retired from as a mechanic ran kenworth t800's for the fleet and had nothing but problems with the deff issue. A solid 90% + warranty repairs were smog and deff related and with about 50 trucks 3 to 5 were at the dealer almost on a daily average. There is a commercial trend back to gas motors now with 450, 4500 size trucks that are putting 50,000 or less miles a yr. GM's big block gassers are a strong motor and ford is coming out with a double overhead cam 4 valves pr. cylinder 427 inch motor for their 250-450 super duties next yr.
 

sneaky

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What tires are you guys running on your diesels? You can't even begin to tell me that you're getting the same mileage out of a set of tires that a gasser gets. Most guys I've talked to with diesels get between 30-40k, maybe, out of a set, that's if they don't chew them up on some of these gravel roads and desert roads here. 10ply ST Maxx on my truck gets me 60-70k miles. Worst I've gotten off of a set was a set of Maxxis Bighorns, got 51k out of those. The boss' kid wore out a set of tires in less than 6 months on his Duramax. Down to the cords. Like I say, he drives like an idiot though. He tried to justify it by saying he put over 20k on them. I couldn't believe he would be happy with just getting 20k out of a $1200 set of tires.

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wapitibob

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I got 30k on a set of toyos on time, worst I've ever gotten, switched to revo 2 and would get about 60. Running Toyo AT now and have no idea of miles but has to be 55k plus.
 
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20k on a set of Michelins from the factory.... typically transforce at's... but I've got all sorts of different flavors. Have had duratracs and they wear well for the lugs they have. They're noisy and rough tho
 

5MilesBack

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What tires are you guys running on your diesels? You can't even begin to tell me that you're getting the same mileage out of a set of tires that a gasser gets.

My '89 Toyota had BF Goodrich All-Terrain KO's on it and they were slicks at under 35k. They say that the KO2's are better so that's what I have on it now. My F-350 has Michelin LTX's and right around 45k right now. I figure another 10-15k and it will be time to change them out. Got 55k out of the last set.

My Toyota requires a new timing belt every 60k miles, I don't have that expense on my diesel. And my 7.3L is actually MUCH easier to work on myself versus my Toyota........in the amount of room to work, and in complexity as well. If you're paying someone to do the work, it's expensive either way. New Toyota clutch at 215k miles.....$1100, new F-350 clutch at 208k......$1400.

But I wouldn't compare a Tacoma or my old Toyota to a full-size diesel in any way. They are both very different tools, with very different purposes. And they both excel at what they do.
 
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What tires are you guys running on your diesels? You can't even begin to tell me that you're getting the same mileage out of a set of tires that a gasser gets. Most guys I've talked to with diesels get between 30-40k, maybe, out of a set, that's if they don't chew them up on some of these gravel roads and desert roads here. 10ply ST Maxx on my truck gets me 60-70k miles. Worst I've gotten off of a set was a set of Maxxis Bighorns, got 51k out of those. The boss' kid wore out a set of tires in less than 6 months on his Duramax. Down to the cords. Like I say, he drives like an idiot though. He tried to justify it by saying he put over 20k on them. I couldn't believe he would be happy with just getting 20k out of a $1200 set of tires.

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30-40k out of a set of tires on any 3/4+ pickup (gas or diesel) is pretty normal. And yes if you use tires designed for those 3/4+ pickups on a Tacoma they last much longer with less weight, low power. The tires on my f350 have right around 60k. toyo m55
 

widnert

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My '89 Toyota had BF Goodrich All-Terrain KO's on it and they were slicks at under 35k. They say that the KO2's are better so that's what I have on it now. My F-350 has Michelin LTX's and right around 45k right now. I figure another 10-15k and it will be time to change them out. Got 55k out of the last set.

My Toyota requires a new timing belt every 60k miles, I don't have that expense on my diesel. And my 7.3L is actually MUCH easier to work on myself versus my Toyota........in the amount of room to work, and in complexity as well. If you're paying someone to do the work, it's expensive either way. New Toyota clutch at 215k miles.....$1100, new F-350 clutch at 208k......$1400.

But I wouldn't compare a Tacoma or my old Toyota to a full-size diesel in any way. They are both very different tools, with very different purposes. And they both excel at what they do.

^^^^What 5MilesBack says. If you have a vehicle you will have maintenance costs. I've just read a lot of anecdotal references through this thread but, it really comes down to what you will use the vehicle for. If you need low-end torque for pulling/hauling, nothing beats a diesel. Period. If you're running around town with just you in the seat, a gas engine is probably what you need.

Back to the OP's original question, if you're going for a trailer to camp in and enjoy it, it's going to be really too much of a load for a gas engine - over mountains. If that's your direction and thinking, start planning now to look at at least a 1-ton truck with a diesel. It's going to be a bigger purchase so, may as well get to planning that before the camper.

As for leaving it parked for periods of time, that is only a problem if you leave the tanks (all of them) partially filled. When you're done with a trip, fill up everything - fuel, DEF, etc. Then, you can park them for longer periods. Add a battery tender to it as well. You'll thank yourself later when you're not replacing dual batteries every couple of years. Above all, get educated about diesels. Whatever brand you get. There are differences in maintaining and driving diesels from gas engines that you will need to know. Biggest issue with newer diesels is to get them up to operating temps and keep them there for a bit. Diesels were built to run. If you let them sit and idle, that's when all the emissions stuff starts to fail - EGR systems get filled with coke, etc. Use the fuel treatment on EVERY fill-up. Don't skip it. Again, you'll thank yourself later.

I've owned diesels now since 2000 (models - 2000, 2006, 2011, 2017). I use them mainly for personal use - towing. I have spent a lot of time using the Internet and personal experiences to educate myself about these engines and how to use them properly. Only had one major bill due to a mechanical issue. Otherwise, repairs were completed by myself or a competent mechanic, with overall costs of ownership falling right in-line with my gas engines. I use trucks for their intended purposes but, I don't abuse them. They cost too much.

Again to the OP - if you have any specific questions about owning a diesel, PM me. I won't claim to be an expert but, I have a lot of experience with them (mainly Ford's). Sounds like 5MilesBack has as well.
 
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Billinsd

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Thanks everyone. I really appreciate it. We will start going to RV shows and will rent some Travel Trailers and 5th Wheels. My wife is going to like something that's like a house if she's going to spend a lot of time in it. I'm thinking probably diesel, because it will be used exclusively for towing. Thanks!!!
 

sneaky

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My '89 Toyota had BF Goodrich All-Terrain KO's on it and they were slicks at under 35k. They say that the KO2's are better so that's what I have on it now. My F-350 has Michelin LTX's and right around 45k right now. I figure another 10-15k and it will be time to change them out. Got 55k out of the last set.

My Toyota requires a new timing belt every 60k miles, I don't have that expense on my diesel. And my 7.3L is actually MUCH easier to work on myself versus my Toyota........in the amount of room to work, and in complexity as well. If you're paying someone to do the work, it's expensive either way. New Toyota clutch at 215k miles.....$1100, new F-350 clutch at 208k......$1400.

But I wouldn't compare a Tacoma or my old Toyota to a full-size diesel in any way. They are both very different tools, with very different purposes. And they both excel at what they do.
Would be a fair point, except my Toyota doesn't have a timing belt, or for that matter, a clutch. BFGs are beloved by many, I am not a fan of those things at all. Good grip when new, skating at half tread. The 7.3 would be the only diesel I would be interested in, but I have absolutely zero need for a diesel.

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dotman

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^^^^What 5MilesBack says. If you have a vehicle you will have maintenance costs. I've just read a lot of anecdotal references through this thread but, it really comes down to what you will use the vehicle for. If you need low-end torque for pulling/hauling, nothing beats a diesel. Period. If you're running around town with just you in the seat, a gas engine is probably what you need.

Back to the OP's original question, if you're going for a trailer to camp in and enjoy it, it's going to be really too much of a load for a gas engine - over mountains. If that's your direction and thinking, start planning now to look at at least a 1-ton truck with a diesel. It's going to be a bigger purchase so, may as well get to planning that before the camper.

As for leaving it parked for periods of time, that is only a problem if you leave the tanks (all of them) partially filled. When you're done with a trip, fill up everything - fuel, DEF, etc. Then, you can park them for longer periods. Add a battery tender to it as well. You'll thank yourself later when you're not replacing dual batteries every couple of years. Above all, get educated about diesels. Whatever brand you get. There are differences in maintaining and driving diesels from gas engines that you will need to know. Biggest issue with newer diesels is to get them up to operating temps and keep them there for a bit. Diesels were built to run. If you let them sit and idle, that's when all the emissions stuff starts to fail - EGR systems get filled with coke, etc. Use the fuel treatment on EVERY fill-up. Don't skip it. Again, you'll thank yourself later.

I've owned diesels now since 2000 (models - 2000, 2006, 2011, 2017). I use them mainly for personal use - towing. I have spent a lot of time using the Internet and personal experiences to educate myself about these engines and how to use them properly. Only had one major bill due to a mechanical issue. Otherwise, repairs were completed by myself or a competent mechanic, with overall costs of ownership falling right in-line with my gas engines. I use trucks for their intended purposes but, I don't abuse them. They cost too much.

Again to the OP - if you have any specific questions about owning a diesel, PM me. I won't claim to be an expert but, I have a lot of experience with them (mainly Ford's). Sounds like 5MilesBack has as well.

Bad advice to suggest filling the DEF and letting it sit, that stuff has a shelf life and if it’ll be sitting in winter it’ll freeze into a solid block. If you’ll be leaving a modern diesel sit for any period of time I wouldn’t fill the def tank full.
 

widnert

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Bad advice to suggest filling the DEF and letting it sit, that stuff has a shelf life and if it’ll be sitting in winter it’ll freeze into a solid block. If you’ll be leaving a modern diesel sit for any period of time I wouldn’t fill the def tank full.

Could be you're right. I haven't experienced any issues yet though. Maybe I'm immune to freezing here in Montana? And, so are all those new trucks sitting on dealer's lots? Not sure though.
 
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Billinsd

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Where are some good resources to learn about pre and post emission diesels? Thanks Bill
 
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Bad advice to suggest filling the DEF and letting it sit, that stuff has a shelf life and if it’ll be sitting in winter it’ll freeze into a solid block. If you’ll be leaving a modern diesel sit for any period of time I wouldn’t fill the def tank full.

This is essentially true... and was the primary culprit of the DEF system I had to replace in my dodge. The dealership after they fixed it told me to run it as a cycle, not fill it every chance I get (basically don't keep it full) and the absolute worst DEF I could use was the stuff at gas stations in underground tanks right next to the pump. I didn't realize it when I first started buying DEF diesels but the life of DEF is about 45 days, and that clock starts ticking from the time it goes into that underground tank. It's better to go into the store and buy the sealed jug of it. Unfortunately for me it's rare to burn an entire tank of DEF in 45 days... I don't think I ever have. Infact a DEF tank typically lasts me about 1 1/2 oil changes and I'm not very often putting on enough miles to be adding new DEF every 45 days. I'm not a mechanic or gear head so I generally heed to the advice of people that know a lot more than me (which is usually most people :) ). Most, if not all, of my DEF diesels now have a heating element to keep the def from freezing while in operation. The only reason I know that is because I've had to replace 3 or 4 of them along with the sensor that reads the DEF temps :mad:.... To my knowledge they can still freeze while they aren't running.

One other concern I'd have with owning a diesel purely for recreational purposes is down time for repairs. If you can afford the additional time to repair a diesel then disregard this. But warranty or not.... they take longer to fix. I've had a diesel in the shop for 5 weeks for just one fix, never had that with a gasser. Most of the time when one of my diesels go down it's 1-2weeks out of commission. If that's what you're relying on for a September elk hunt, it's worth considering. I think the longest down time on my gassers in the last 5-10 years is 4 days... I have a pair of 2015 Dmax's right now that in their first year were out for roughly 2 weeks each. That's a full month I was without a truck that wasn't "paying for itself". It was all warranty/recall work but a pain nonetheless and GM won't reimburse lost income.

Lastly I don't doubt or dispute other's claims on here about having to repair gassers., diesels in theory are more economical, etc... I'm quite possibly the least fortunate human being when it comes to vehicle repairs but my gassers to diesel ratio is pennys to dollars between the two. Diesels are a neccessary evil for me, and for other varities of contractors... it's why concrete is what it is per yard, trees cost what they do to cut, houses to build, etc... Obviously there's other things driving costs also but equipment maint. and repairs is a slice of that pie.
 
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dotman

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This is essentially true... and was the primary culprit of the DEF system I had to replace in my dodge. The dealership after they fixed it told me to run it as a cycle, not fill it every chance I get (basically don't keep it full) and the absolute worst DEF I could use was the stuff at gas stations in underground tanks right next to the pump. I didn't realize it when I first started buying DEF diesels but the life of DEF is about 45 days, and that clock starts ticking from the time it goes into that underground tank. It's better to go into the store and buy the sealed jug of it. I'm not a mechanic or gear head so I generally heed to the advice of people that know a lot more than me (which is usually most people :) ). Most, if not all, of my DEF diesels now have a heating element to keep the def from freezing while in operation. The only reason I know that is because I've had to replace 3 or 4 of them.... To my knowledge they can still freeze while they aren't running.

One other concern I'd have with owning a diesel purely for recreational purposes is down time for repairs. If you can afford the additional time to repair a diesel then disregard this. But warranty or not.... they take longer to fix. I've had a diesel in the shop for 5 weeks for just one fix, never had that with a gasser. Most of the time when one of my diesels go down it's 1-2weeks out of commission. If that's what you're relying on for a September elk hunt, it's worth considering. I think the longest down time on my gassers in the last 5-10 years is 4 days... I have a pair of 2015 Dmax's right now that in their first year were out for roughly 2 weeks each. That's a full month I was without a truck that wasn't "paying for itself". It was all warranty/recall work but a pain nonetheless and GM won't reimburse lost income.

Lastly I don't doubt or dispute other's claims on here about having to repair gassers., diesels in theory are more economical, etc... I'm quite possibly the least fortunate human being when it comes to vehicle repairs but my gassers to diesel ratio is pennys to dollars between the two. Diesels are a neccessary evil for me, and for other varities of contractors... it's why concrete is what it is per yard, trees cost what they do to cut, houses to build, etc... Obviously there's other things driving costs also but equipment maint. and repairs is a slice of that pie.

On my Nissan warranty coverage doesn’t cover burst def tanks, in the winter they are to be 1/2 full or less and mine also has a heater in it but it only heats while the truck is running.
 

widnert

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On my Nissan warranty coverage doesn’t cover burst def tanks, in the winter they are to be 1/2 full or less and mine also has a heater in it but it only heats while the truck is running.

From the Cummins website:

Q: What happens if DEF freezes?
A: Vehicle operation is not affected. During vehicle operation, SCR systems provide heat to the DEF tank and lines. The system thaws DEF rapidly and keeps it flowing to the aftertreatment system regardless of the outside temperature.

Diesel Exhaust Fluid is formulated with 32.5 percent urea and 67.5 percent deionized water. In storage or when the engine is not in use, DEF will freeze at 12°F (-11°C). At this concentration level, the urea and the water freeze and thaw at the same rate – ensuring that you always have the correct amount of each. Engines with SCR are specifically programmed for optimal performance at this ratio, which is why it is important to make sure you get a quality brand of DEF that meets ISO specifications.

Cummins Aftertreatment Systems are designed with heated lines and DEF tanks. In extremely cold conditions, they will rapidly thaw the DEF solution. There will be no delay in engine startup.

There is one operational difference to note: Like any water-based fluid, DEF expands when it is frozen (by approximately 7 percent). In cold weather, when the operator shuts the vehicle down, waiting 60 seconds before turning off the battery will allow the fluid to drain back out of the hoses and into the DEF tank.

No anti-gelling additive or freeze point improver should ever be added to the DEF, as they will impede its ability to perform correctly and may damage SCR system components.

Now.....let's see. 7% of a 3.5 gallon (448oz) DEF tank = 31.36oz or 0.245gal That's about the volume of your fill tube. I'm pretty sure the manufacturers have taken into account that DEF will freeze in extremely cold temps and planned for it. Does your manual tell you to run it at half full in the winter? If so, follow the manual.

As noted above, I have never had an issue with DEF freezing and bursting the tank on either of my trucks that use DEF. I still own both. 1 is 7 years old and spent plenty of time outside in below freezing weather (down to -40F). Back to the OP - it's really not an issue.
 

Axlrod

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This is essentially true... and was the primary culprit of the DEF system I had to replace in my dodge. The dealership after they fixed it told me to run it as a cycle, not fill it every chance I get (basically don't keep it full) and the absolute worst DEF I could use was the stuff at gas stations in underground tanks right next to the pump. I didn't realize it when I first started buying DEF diesels but the life of DEF is about 45 days, and that clock starts ticking from the time it goes into that underground tank. It's better to go into the store and buy the sealed jug of it. Unfortunately for me it's rare to burn an entire tank of DEF in 45 days... I don't think I ever have. Infact a DEF tank typically lasts me about 1 1/2 oil changes and I'm not very often putting on enough miles to be adding new DEF every 45 days. I'm not a mechanic or gear head so I generally heed to the advice of people that know a lot more than me (which is usually most people :) ). Most, if not all, of my DEF diesels now have a heating element to keep the def from freezing while in operation. The only reason I know that is because I've had to replace 3 or 4 of them along with the sensor that reads the DEF temps :mad:.... To my knowledge they can still freeze while they aren't running.

One other concern I'd have with owning a diesel purely for recreational purposes is down time for repairs. If you can afford the additional time to repair a diesel then disregard this. But warranty or not.... they take longer to fix. I've had a diesel in the shop for 5 weeks for just one fix, never had that with a gasser. Most of the time when one of my diesels go down it's 1-2weeks out of commission. If that's what you're relying on for a September elk hunt, it's worth considering. I think the longest down time on my gassers in the last 5-10 years is 4 days... I have a pair of 2015 Dmax's right now that in their first year were out for roughly 2 weeks each. That's a full month I was without a truck that wasn't "paying for itself". It was all warranty/recall work but a pain nonetheless and GM won't reimburse lost income.

Lastly I don't doubt or dispute other's claims on here about having to repair gassers., diesels in theory are more economical, etc... I'm quite possibly the least fortunate human being when it comes to vehicle repairs but my gassers to diesel ratio is pennys to dollars between the two. Diesels are a neccessary evil for me, and for other varities of contractors... it's why concrete is what it is per yard, trees cost what they do to cut, houses to build, etc... Obviously there's other things driving costs also but equipment maint. and repairs is a slice of that pie.
This is from Trucking info .com :The shelf life of DEF is directly related to the temperature at which it is stored. Storage temperatures between 12° and 86°F are recommended to maintain optimal shelf life of up to two years. DEF does freeze at 12°F, but a vehicle’s heating system will melt DEF so it is completely safe to operate a diesel vehicle under this temperature.
 
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Funny thread, We have tacoma owners dogging 3/4 diesels owners in a thread about pulling a travel trailer...


Bill on the emission stuff you have mainly two issues DEF pump and Life of DPF. Neither are that big of a deal, but need to be factored in every 200k, assuming you don’t delete. If you delete it’s one and done, until you trade it in.

I wasn’t paying attention on to size of your travel trailer, but my life is worth a few more dollars for a few more pounds and braking ability then what a half ton has to offer. One top of that I choose diesel because at the end of the day I don’t fret about joining traffic, passing, inclines or step downward grades.

The negatives are they aren’t the most comfortable suspension wise on dirt(although that can be fix for $$$$) but highly capable, your oil changes will be 15qts, and you will have fuel filters every 20-30k.

Other then that pretty cut and dry. Historically most 3/4 have the biggest cabs, so comfort wise they tend to have more space(Ford and Dodge)

Ive been driving a 3/4 diesel for well over 20 years, I also own a gas truck. Feel free to PM me and I can walk you through any issues I’ve had or anything thing I would do differently
 
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