BH 8-10" right @ 50yds......Can they be tuned?

[tipsntails7]

On Friday I had a buddy move my rest out of center shot without me knowing which way he moved it in order to make this as completely honest as possible. The 'Red" nocked arrow is the BH and the "Green" is the FP. I added these colors in photoshop in order to make it easier to differentiate the two. All shots were taken with the same 2 arrows several times at 40 Yds to confirm the adjustments and to make sure form was not an issue. sight was adjusted for FP's hitting middle after every adjustment as well, this was more so I didn't miss the block and trash arrow.

This was the setting of the rest before any shots were taken:

and this was the resulting group:

Broadhead left. In order to follow Brendan's advice i moved the rest drastically LEFT to this position:

Resulting group:

Broadhead right. So to bring it back to the left i moved the rest RIGHT to this position:

and this was the resulting group:

So...... its pretty evident that i was incorrect. Moving the rest towards the BH did in fact move it in the desired direction.

I will say what shocked me was the ending position of the rest was probably a 1/16th away from where i adjusted it the prior week using yokes and a tiny amount of rest manipulation. so the bow could have been fairly forgiving of my incorrect tuning or my form was compensating, to be honest I am not real sure. I could have also fallen into the trap of a "good enough" BH group and not expect something better, which again i should not let happen.

I appreciate Brendan calling me out and making me put the proof in the pudding as I will now be entering the woods with a better tuned bow, which is always a win in my book.

I have tuned many bows in the past with what i thought was the correct method. This is a really good example of paying attention to what your doing and being critical and unbiased, as I probably would have argued till i was blue in the face my original take and would never think to try it the other way.

No matter what you may think you know, its always a good idea to step back and listen, you may learn something.

 

[5MilesBack]

Moving the rest towards the BH did in fact move it in the desired direction.

And yet last year when my BH was 12" right of FP's at 60 yards, I moved the rest LEFT and got them perfectly in line with each other at every distance out to 100. I'm LH, but with a compound and using a loop that shouldn't matter. But I've had other bows where I moved the rest toward the BH to get them lined up. That's why I don't even look at the charts. I just tune until it's shooting perfectly.

 

[dplantz]

Might matter how much it is off? I've always set center shot, then broadhead tuned chasing field points, and had great results with both a single cam Bear, and a dual cam bowtech . . .

 

[Brendan]

So, a couple observations or thoughts here... Will try not to ramble, but good luck with that

I appreciate Brendan calling me out and making me put the proof in the pudding as I will now be entering the woods with a better tuned bow, which is always a win in my book.
...
No matter what you may think you know, its always a good idea to step back and listen, you may learn something.

Thanks for testing! I'm with you though - I actually like getting proved wrong from time to time, because it means you learned something new.

With that said - I still think there’s something for moving the rest the opposite of what I’ve done in certain scenarios. For example, I’ve seen posts or write-ups from John Dudley, Levi Morgan and Tim Gillingham (among others) that say what you said earlier - essentially move the rest opposite of what I do… Which leads me to believe - it can happen in certain scenarios, or it’s a terminology thing (looking at the bow from the front?) or they’re all just hacks who can’t shoot? (kidding….)

The problem is - I’ve never personally seen it, and when I see tuners who’ve tuned hundreds, if not thousands of bows and have shot at Vegas say the same thing, It’s hard to wrap my head around…

Side story - when I moved my rest in my testing yesterday - with the the first rest movement (to the right of centershot) the reaction and correction was clear cut, first shots, no question, move on. When I moved it past center shot the other way (left of centershot) - bare shaft flight was conclusive tail left impact right, but fixed blades were still much much closer to field points and I shot a bunch of extra arrows to confirm the pattern. It makes me wonder why when the arrow rest was on one side of center shot - it was much more clear cut, and then on the other the reaction was clear cut with bare shafts, but broadheads I really had to pay attention and also shoot longer distance to make sure I saw the difference…

So - I actually think it has something to do with horizontal nock travel and your rest support during the shot. Your nock and D loop will move horizontally during the power stroke because of the cable guard is inducing cam lean that changes throughout the draw cycle. I also think how long a rest stays up and supports the arrow during the shot, and how much lateral (left / right) support the rest gives plays a part because it’s helping support / steer the front of the arrow during the shot while the rear of the arrow is moving left / right as it’s steered by the string…

I'm LH, but with a compound and using a loop that shouldn't matter.

Actually - because of what I wrote above and the direction the cable guard is pulling the string and the direction of the horizontal nock travel - I could see that making a difference. No proof, just guessing… (EDIT - Actually guessing you're right here. Physical direction would be different from RH, but whether you chase the broadhead or move opposite should react the same...)

So anyways. No idea how to go about quantifying any of this - but the easy way out is just test it both ways yourself and see what works… At the end of the day - you’ll end up understanding your bow better and having a better shooting bow because of it.

Anyone else has any hard testing data they can document that goes the other way, I’d love to see it…

Ok - done for the night. Time to stop worrying about my tune and just get ready to go put a pointy stick in an Elk

 

[Gumbo]

Awesome job guys...Thanks! I learned a lot from this.

 

[Ag111]

I must say that when I first read these posts I was skeptical. Seems like this is a real thing though?!?! I will be trying it tomorrow morning with my German Kinetics XLs, I'm very excited and will report back. More info below with a great diagram at the end that details how this all works.

Halon tuning

 

[5MilesBack]

Actually - because of what I wrote above and the direction the cable guard is pulling the string and the direction of the horizontal nock travel - I could see that making a difference.

I don't know how much of a difference it makes, but my PSE has a Flexguard that bends with the cables as they move back and forth that is supposed to eliminate or minimize that cam lean or lateral nock travel.

I've also found on binaries that you can get quite a bit of vertical BH to FP closure just twisting or untwisting a cable.

 

[tipsntails7]

I must say that when I first read these posts I was skeptical. Seems like this is a real thing though?!?! I will be trying it tomorrow morning with my German Kinetics XLs, I'm very excited and will report back. More info below with a great diagram at the end that details how this all works.

Halon tuning

That diagram at the bottom of that thread makes it much more clear on why it works that way. So it's the resulting kick of the arrow being offcenter rather then its original launch angle. So an arrow that is point left actually comes out of the bow and kicks right, leading to a left tail tear. In order to fix that you bring the rest right to bring the point right. Very interesting.

Brendan, I think your probably on to something in regards to how much horizontal nock travel a given bow has and how that may change the outcomes of BH tuning.

 

[Screamrider]

So...... its pretty evident that i was incorrect. Moving the rest towards the BH did in fact move it in the desired direction.

I will say what shocked me was the ending position of the rest was probably a 1/16th away from where i adjusted it the prior week using yokes and a tiny amount of rest manipulation. so the bow could have been fairly forgiving of my incorrect tuning or my form was compensating, to be honest I am not real sure. I could have also fallen into the trap of a "good enough" BH group and not expect something better, which again i should not let happen.

I appreciate Brendan calling me out and making me put the proof in the pudding as I will now be entering the woods with a better tuned bow, which is always a win in my book.

I have tuned many bows in the past with what i thought was the correct method. This is a really good example of paying attention to what your doing and being critical and unbiased, as I probably would have argued till i was blue in the face my original take and would never think to try it the other way.

No matter what you may think you know, its always a good idea to step back and listen, you may learn something.

Thanks for taking the time to do a comprehensive test and share your honest findings. This really is one of the most misunderstood aspects of tuning, and hopefully this finally gives folks the confidence to move their rests towards their broadheads for horizontal misses.

 

[Ag111]

Ok as promised.

I went broadhead tuning again today and as has been my problem the Broadheads were hitting right of FPs. I moved rest to the RIGHT and Boom! Broadheads hitting with FPs now! I spent a month getting frustrated with this and thanks to this thread I now have a well tuned bow that I am confident in. Leaving to CO tomorrow morning for my elk hunt so the timing couldn't have been better. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. This could have saved my hunt!

 

[Brendan]

I don't know how much of a difference it makes, but my PSE has a Flexguard that bends with the cables as they move back and forth that is supposed to eliminate or minimize that cam lean or lateral nock travel.

I've also found on binaries that you can get quite a bit of vertical BH to FP closure just twisting or untwisting a cable.

Not sure that's it. I've used Bowtech with an adjustable flex guard, the new Hoyt ZT's have some movement, and my Prime has an adjustable flex guard. I still think it has to be the amount of nock travel (probably vertical and horizontal) and the amount of rest support which can be based on a lot of different factors.

I don't think there's a bow on the market that has no cam lean and no horizontal nock travel - even shoot through risers have cable guards. Prime is sometimes referred to as zero cam lean - I still had to deal with cam spacers, rest movement, and tuning the flex guard...

 

[5MilesBack]

I don't think there's a bow on the market that has no cam lean and no horizontal nock travel - unless you're looking at shoot through riser designs without a cable guard. Prime is sometimes referred to as zero cam lean - I still had to deal with cam spacers, rest movement, and tuning the flex guard...

When my Freak showed up from the factory, I literally only had to put 1/2 twist in one of the yokes and adjust the rest to get it set up and shooting great. I always start at 60 yards for my tuning, and within 5 min it was good to go. I haven't shot a bow that I needed to even think about spacers or shims on, and I'm shooting at 32 1/2" draw. No, I take that back........the Strother Moxie had such horrible top cam lean at full draw that I thought the string was going to derail. And every other LD archer I've known with that bow says the same thing. It did tune with that lean, but it wasn't worth keeping IMO with that lean.....especially with no valley or much let-off.

 

[JP7]

What's the solution if your broadheads consistently hit high and to the right no matter which way you move the rest?


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[Brendan]

When my Freak showed up from the factory, I literally only had to put 1/2 twist in one of the yokes and adjust the rest to get it set up and shooting great. I always start at 60 yards for my tuning, and within 5 min it was good to go.

I've had that happen too, but that doesn't mean there's no cam lean. I bet if you were to check the cams with an arrow running down the side of the cam at brace and then at full draw - you'd see it. But like you said - that doesn't mean it won't tune perfectly... (This was pretty much exactly the case with my Hoyt Turbo that I tuned recently)

When I tuned my Prime, I didn't *Need* to adjust the spacers, but I'm OCD and didn't like my rest as far left as it was, so elected to check the spacers to bring my rest back in close to dead center.

 

[Brendan]

What's the solution if your broadheads consistently hit high and to the right no matter which way you move the rest?

First thing I'd do is be checking for fletching / rest / cable contact using foot powder, lipstick or something... I would also make sure to put my arrow / broadhead combination on an arrow spinner to make sure it's spinning true without any wobble, and I'd try testing with multiple arrow / broadheads to make sure to rule out a bad one. You can even get into turning nocks if you find a certain arrow that's not grouping with others

 

[JP7]

BH 8-10" right @ 50yds......Can they be tuned?

First thing I'd do is be checking for fletching / rest / cable contact using foot powder, lipstick or something... I would also make sure to put my arrow / broadhead combination on an arrow spinner to make sure it's spinning true without any wobble, and I'd try testing with multiple arrow / broadheads to make sure to rule out a bad one. You can even get into turning nocks if you find a certain arrow that's not grouping with others

Actually I've tried 5 different fixed blade heads. All of my broadheads group really well together but they are high and right. In the research I've done one answer might be that my draw length is just a bit long. Haven't done anything to test that yet but I will tonight. Bow has been bareshaft tuned with bare shafts and fletched hitting together at 20. Haven't shot a bare shaft to check to see if there has been any change but will tonight.


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[5MilesBack]

Whatever you do, only adjust for one of the directions at a time. I like to get vertical perfect and then work on horizontal.

 

[Brendan]

Actually I've tried 5 different fixed blade heads. All of my broadheads group really well together but they are high and right. In the research I've done one answer might be that my draw length is just a bit long. Haven't done anything to test that yet but I will tonight. Bow has been bareshaft tuned with bare shafts and fletched hitting together at 20. Haven't shot a bare shaft to check to see if there has been any change but will tonight.

I'd rule out any fletching / rest / cable contact issues first. That stuff can drive you nuts and is quick to check for. You can also try shooting bare shafts at 30 to see if you can be consistent with them at that range. I've had them appear to be on or very close at 20, and then start showing a consistent miss / difference at 30.

Draw length - John Dudley has a great video that shows a really good form example. Don't concentrate on how he measures to get you close - concentrate on what he looks like at full draw, straight arm, string at the tip of the nose upright "T" posture.

Proper Draw Length with John Dudley of Nock On - YouTube

Then I'm with 5MB - try lowering the rest a little or raising the nocking point first to clean up the vertical issue, and then try horizontal again.

 

[JP7]

Thanks guys!


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[Finch]

Brendan helped me realize I had been BH tuning incorrectly for years. I had posted some bareshafting woes in a thread and he got me pointed in the right direction. Between a couple of AT threads and the Easton's Tuning guide being incorrect, no wonder so many people are confused on this.