BH 8-10" right @ 50yds......Can they be tuned?

[rileybassman]

just ran into this while tuning this week as well... broadheads were impacting left... tried moving rest to the right and did not resolve, tried moving to the left, and it improved.

 

[Slim Jim]

BH 8-10" right @ 50yds......Can they be tuned?

Don't you bareshaft tune by moving rests, twisting yokes, adjusting widnage .

Sorry, I should have detailed that a little better. Yes you do these things to tune your bare shaft but if your broadheads poi are way off from the field points, I don't change all those variables for just the broadheads because now your field points poi is way off. If they are real close I will split differences

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[cooperjd]

I helped my neighbor fix his problem today with broadheads vs fp's.

elite energy 35
hamskea rest

his broadheads were impacting about 6" left at 30y. first i just did a quick check on his center shot, it was way too far in towards the riser (as i suspected due to his left bh impact). i moved it to a pretty good center shot position (to the left), and viola, his bh/fp are impacting the same point now at 30y. he still has some longer range testing to do, and possibly making minor tweaks... but moving the rest towards the broadheads works for a release aid shooter (unless there's a spine issue).

 

[cooperjd]

Don't you bareshaft tune by moving rests, twisting yokes, adjusting widnage .

depends on the bow. some bows you can't do that if they have a binary cam. for my bowtech's with their binary overdrive (2 yokes) i do. i set my rest to center, set my D-loop, and fix the left/right issues of my bare shaft flight by adjusting my cam lean.

i adjust my up/down bare shaft issues with cam timing.

then i go out with broadheads and only occasionally make teeny tiny tweaks to the rest to bring their groups right in line with the fp's.

 

[tipsntails7]

Sorry, in my experience (right handed shooter) this is wrong, that graphic is wrong. I've tested it and proved it. You move the rest right with every single bow I've tested for a broadhead impacting right of field points. NOT LEFT

Now, I won't rule out the possibility of there being differences in certain cam systems or bow geometries, but I haven't found one yet where it works the other way between Hoyt, Prime, Bowtech or XPedition. I don't think it came from nowhere, but I can't tell you why it's out there. (Shooting fingers? Trad?)

I'll dig up some other links on this, because this exact topic comes up reasonably frequently and I've seen multiple other experienced tuners agree with rest right in this case

With that said - Try it both ways - see what works for you...

You move rest right when you paper tune for a right handed shooter if its a left tail because the paper is 3-4' or less away from the bow , with a mechanical release with modern day bows because of the oscillation of the arrow leaving the bow. For broadheads you chase the FP because your shooting 20+ yards and the arrow has stabilized enough to represent the launch angle of that arrow. so if your broadhead is right / that is an exaggeration of what your arrow looks like. You need to move the point to the left as broadheads will veer to the point side.

This is not taking in to account fingers or a plunger button, as I highly doubt the OP is doing either.

There is a bunch of mixing up paper tuning and broadhead tuning in this thread.

That graphic is from eastons tuning guide for BROADHEADS. you can look up a thousand diagrams and they will all say the exact same thing.

nock left paper tuning- mover rest towards riser for right hander

nock left broadhead tuning (IE heads hitting right of FP's) move rest away from riser for right hander.

Now there is a point where you can be so far out of alignment that this theory doesn't work, weak spine arrows also make this ineffective, Cam lean and the stroke of the string can play a roll as well, as it can play havoc with the launch angle of the arrow.

when in doubt try it both ways.

If you put a bow in a hooter shooter it becomes apparent real quick which way is and is not correct

 

[Brendan]

You move rest right when you paper tune for a right handed shooter if its a left tail because the paper is 3-4' or less away from the bow , with a mechanical release with modern day bows because of the oscillation of the arrow leaving the bow. for broadheads you chase the FP because your shooting 20+ yards and the arrow has stabilized enough to represent the launch angle of that arrow. so if your broadhead is right / that is an exaggeration of what your arrow looks like. You need to move the point to the left as broadheads will veer to the point side.

This is not taking in to account fingers or a plunger button, as I highly doubt the OP is doing either.

There is a bunch of mixing up paper tuning and broadhead tuning in this thread.

That graphic is from eastons tuning guide for BROAD-HEADS. you can look up a thousand diagrams and they will all say the exact same thing.

nock left paper tuning- mover rest towards riser for right hander

nock left broadhead tuning (IE heads hitting right of FP's) move rest away from riser for right hander.

Sorry - still disagree with you. The diagram isn't correct (for broadheads with a mechanical release)... There's plenty of testing by plenty of people to back it up.

All of my advice is bare shaft tuning and broadhead tuning at various distances with a mechanical release, no paper tuning anymore for me, although I have done plenty of it and you're usually not going to see a difference in my experience. I've never shot fingers, lefty or trad, so I'll stay out of those.

I don't paper tune as you can occasionally see false tears and you can see tears that change at varying distance based on oscillation of the arrow and stabilization over distance due to the vanes (Not always, but possible). And, Bare Shafts followed by Broadheads are just easier for me.

My Tuning Notes that have worked for me (All backed up by my testing on multiple bows)

Nock Left - Broadhead Misses Right
* Broadhead hitting right is the same as bareshafts hitting right or a tail left tear.
* Tighten Left Yoke
* Loosen Right Yoke
* Rest Right
* Spine too Weak
* Shim Cam(s) to the Left
* Crank flex guard out for less sideways string pressure / less string clearance.

Nock Right - Broadhead misses Left
* Broadhead hitting left is the same as bareshafts hitting left or a tail right tear.
* Tighten Right Yoke
* Loosen Left Yoke
* Rest Left
* Spine too Stiff
* Shim Cam(s) to the Right
* Crank down flex guard for more sideways string pressure / more string clearance.

Nock High - Broadhead Misses Low
* Visualize an arrow pointed down - it will miss low as a bare shaft or broadhead
* Raise the rest up to correct
* Or, lower nocking point & D-loop
* Or, tighten control cable to bring bottom cam ahead
* Or, lengthen buss cable to bring top cam back towards even or hitting behind bottom cam

Nock Low - Broadhead Misses High
* Visualize an arrow pointed up - it will miss high as a bare shaft or broadhead
* Lower the rest down to correct
* Or, raise nocking point & D-loop
* Or, tighten buss cable to bring top cam ahead
* Or, loosen control cable to bring bottom cam behind


My caveats - I've only once ever had an issue I'd chalk up to spine so I should probably remove those bullets, and some of these adjustments aren't possible on all bows.

 

[Screamrider]

You move rest right when you paper tune for a right handed shooter if its a left tail because the paper is 3-4' or less away from the bow , with a mechanical release with modern day bows because of the oscillation of the arrow leaving the bow. For broadheads you chase the FP because your shooting 20+ yards and the arrow has stabilized enough to represent the launch angle of that arrow. so if your broadhead is right / that is an exaggeration of what your arrow looks like. You need to move the point to the left as broadheads will veer to the point side.

This is not taking in to account fingers or a plunger button, as I highly doubt the OP is doing either.

There is a bunch of mixing up paper tuning and broadhead tuning in this thread.

That graphic is from eastons tuning guide for BROADHEADS. you can look up a thousand diagrams and they will all say the exact same thing.

nock left paper tuning- mover rest towards riser for right hander

nock left broadhead tuning (IE heads hitting right of FP's) move rest away from riser for right hander.

Now there is a point where you can be so far out of alignment that this theory doesn't work, weak spine arrows also make this ineffective, Cam lean and the stroke of the string can play a roll as well, as it can play havoc with the launch angle of the arrow.

when in doubt try it both ways.

If you put a bow in a hooter shooter it becomes apparent real quick which way is and is not correct

Only chiming in again as this is simply wrong. No offence, but broadheads hitting right of field points requires the rest to be moved right for a right handed shooter, plain and simple.

For any folks out there struggling with this, give it a try and you'll see.


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[tipsntails7]

Only chiming in again as this is simply wrong. No offence, but broadheads hitting right of field points requires the rest to be moved right for a right handed shooter, plain and simple.

For any folks out there struggling with this, give it a try and you'll see.


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No offense but ALL the below agree with me and disagree with you. I could keep going but why bother. Read them, don't, but PLEASE explain to me how if an arrow is point right, moving the rest FARTHER right brings it in line with the tail of the arrow. If your half a bubble off plum to the right, you don't keep making it more off plum. Geometry doesn't work like that, sorry. Maybe it's your spine, maybe you have hand torque, I don't know, but anywhere you care to look agrees with me, plus the 20 years of shooting and tuning bows tells my they're right as well.

What's bizarre is you guys believe you go towards the broadhead horizontally, but vertically you go the opposite. Why would it react different? For heads that hit hi you drop the rest... to bring the point DOWN and in line with the tail... why would it be the opposite horizontally??


Bow Tuning for Fixed Blade Broadheads | Wasp Archery


Broadhead Tuning Day Today

Broadhead Tuning

3 Easy Steps for Tuning Fixed Blade Broadheads

Broadhead Tuning a Compound Bow the Correct Way

http://www.newarchery.com/publisher/general-tips/2009/7/7/broadhead-tuning/

 

[MattB]

I always move my rest right when broadheads are hitting left of field points and if that doesn't work I move it left.

Yep

 

[Brendan]

TipsnTails - I don't care how many links you post. Most of the crap on the Internet is wrong or outdated and people follow it like gospel - and you're helping perpetuate it. Really what's happening is people are posting links to information that apply to a different scenario. Basically - all of those articles and links are based on the Easton Tuning Guide that applied to older technology bows and maybe finger shooters, but doesn't apply to modern compounds with regards to rest left/right movement. If you're going to rely on internet chatter - here are some for you to read through that disagree with you:

Easton Tuning Guide is wrong?

Here's a great one that talks about this exact confusion and issue and documents these rest movements to prove it:
Let's talk broadhead tuning!!

Great Info from Shane (Member here too, so maybe he'll chime in) who does this for a living unlike the rest of us amateurs:

Broadhead tuning help needed

Ontarget I moved the rest left because the broadheads were hitting right of the field tips. Isn't that correct?

No sir. That would be incorrect

Broadhead hitting right is the same as bareshafts hitting right or a tail left tear.

You would move your rest towards the Broadhead.

I tune hundreds of bows and I am hear to tell you that what you may have been taught is completely wrong.

I can say this with 100% confidence since I have never had a bow that I couldn't shoot perfect broadheads

I've gotten so tired of arguing this fact that I just don't bother any more. Good on you for fighting the good fight. Too bad crap like that broadhead sticky are still around poisoning peoples minds with garbage info.

 

[Brendan]

So let's do this if we want to stop the arguing. This is Rokslide after all, and people like data, pictures, and actually documenting testing like this as opposed to AT where people mainly bitch and whine

Have you personally tested what you're saying and are you willing to go to the range, and take a bow out of tune and test your adjustments and document it with pictures for people here on Rokslide? Move rest left - fire broadheads and field points, take pictures. Move rest right, fire broadheads and field points, take pictures? Basically - no referring to information on the internet, but put your money where your mouth is and show your method working for you. To be honest - if it works for you and you can prove it, I'd like to understand your setup and why it's working in that case...

From my end, I am willing if you don't believe me. I am not passing on links to what other people say, I've tested this myself. Within the last month - both with a Hoyt and a Prime. This season - 4 Hoyts, a Prime, an XPedition and a Mathews. If you think I'm making shit up, I'll do it again with my backup bow and take pictures at a trip to the range this week. Last tuning session here, mostly yoke tuning, but rest was used too:

http://www.rokslide.com/forums/archery/73933-setting-bow-scratch.html

So - with the number of people disagreeing with you, willing to put your money where your mouth is, move your rest and document it here?

 

[Screamrider]

The unfortunate thing in this thread is folks perpetuating WRONG information that will only confuse more people!

Brendan is 100% correct.

Broadheads hitting right, move your rest right.

This is as black and white as turning your limb bolts clockwise increases your draw weight.

Like Brendan said, all the outdated and incorrect internet posts and links in the world won't change this.

Just try it when your broadheads need horizontal correction and you will see first hand.


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[Redside]

I've been getting very frustrated about my broadhead tuning. I'm not an expert with bows, so I went out and looked all over the internet to figure this out and went into the bow shop the other day because I was pulling my hair out trying to get them to hit where my field points are. Everything I read/told was "opposites attract" method, it did not get better.

I read this and went back the other way and it has helped much more, moving the rest towards the broadhead left/right. However, I didn't realize that vertically they go opposite. As I left it this morning my vertical was getting worse as I tried to move towards broadhead. Will go back the other way tonight and hope that helps. Really need to get this figured out. Glad I found this discussion.

 

[tipsntails7]

So let's do this if we want to stop the arguing. This is Rokslide after all, and people like data, pictures, and actually documenting testing like this as opposed to AT where people mainly bitch and whine

Have you personally tested what you're saying and are you willing to go to the range, and take a bow out of tune and test your adjustments and document it with pictures for people here on Rokslide? Move rest left - fire broadheads and field points, take pictures. Move rest right, fire broadheads and field points, take pictures? Basically - no referring to information on the internet, but put your money where your mouth is and show your method working for you. To be honest - if it works for you and you can prove it, I'd like to understand your setup and why it's working in that case...

From my end, I am willing if you don't believe me. I am not passing on links to what other people say, I've tested this myself. Within the last month - both with a Hoyt and a Prime. This season - 4 Hoyts, a Prime, an XPedition and a Mathews. If you think I'm making shit up, I'll do it again with my backup bow and take pictures at a trip to the range this week. Last tuning session here, mostly yoke tuning, but rest was used too:

http://www.rokslide.com/forums/archery/73933-setting-bow-scratch.html

So - with the number of people disagreeing with you, willing to put your money where your mouth is, move your rest and document it here?

Ill take a bow out of tune and re-tune it. My bow is shooting fixed heads and Fp's to the same spot to 40 as of this moment. so I will move my rest left (outside of centershot) and we will see where we are at. Im not going to touch anything but the rest itself, so no yoke tuning or changing nock level. If I am wrong I have got no problem posting it up, it wouldn't be the first time

Just for full candor, I didn't start passing links until you disagreed.

The Setup.
Bow: Xpedition X ring 6 28 1/4 draw, 69.2 pounds. Tommy hogg 3 pin, trophy taker rest.


Arrow Gold tip Pierce 27 1/2 from throat to end of insert tipped with trophy taker shuttle T's. Total weight is 450-452 depending on arrow.

 

[jmez]

There is a bunch of mixing up paper tuning and broadhead tuning in this thread.

Why would they be different? If you shoot a bare shaft, a fletched shaft, and a BH tipped shaft through paper when an arrow is flying tail left, you will get a tail left with all three, every time. The bare shaft and BH shaft are going to have a worse tear but they will all tear the same.

 

[tipsntails7]

Why would they be different? If you shoot a bare shaft, a fletched shaft, and a BH tipped shaft through paper when an arrow is flying tail left, you will get a tail left with all three, every time. The bare shaft and BH shaft are going to have a worse tear but they will all tear the same.

move the paper closer or farther away, the tear will be different because of the oscillation of the arrow, or lack there of down range.

 

[jmez]

No it won't they will all tear tail left.

The shaft ossilates it doesn't change directions as it is going downrange. If it is flying / with that configuration the shaft itself will undergo ossicllation it won't continually switch course and fly like this, \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/. It will continue on its path the way it came out of the bow. If it comes out tail left it will maintain tail left.

 

[jmez]

The fletched shaft will straighten itself out at longer ranges and that tear will decrease in magnitude the farther from the paper you would get. The fletching will eventually counteract the sideways flight so the arrow flies straight. With a BH the fletching can't overcome the steering going on in the front as well so you will maintain tail left flight. It may help and be less off course than with a bareshaft but it is still going to maintain a direction in the point and tail.

 

[Screamrider]

I've been getting very frustrated about my broadhead tuning. I'm not an expert with bows, so I went out and looked all over the internet to figure this out and went into the bow shop the other day because I was pulling my hair out trying to get them to hit where my field points are. Everything I read/told was "opposites attract" method, it did not get better.

I read this and went back the other way and it has helped much more, moving the rest towards the broadhead left/right. However, I didn't realize that vertically they go opposite. As I left it this morning my vertical was getting worse as I tried to move towards broadhead. Will go back the other way tonight and hope that helps. Really need to get this figured out. Glad I found this discussion.

You bring up a great point. Yes, for vertical adjustments with broadheads, move the rest in the opposite direction - so, broadheads hitting higher than field points, bring your rest down in small increments. From experience I recommend sorting out the vertical travel first, then worry about windage - and as you've already learned, move the rest right if the broadhead is hitting right. Great to see someone early in the process see it work firsthand.

 

[tipsntails7]

No it won't they will all tear tail left.

The shaft ossilates it doesn't change directions as it is going downrange. If it is flying / with that configuration the shaft itself will undergo ossicllation it won't continually switch course and fly like this, \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/. It will continue on its path the way it came out of the bow. If it comes out tail left it will maintain tail left.

I am not arguing that the arrow changes direction, but if you think the arrow doesn't oscillate enough to kick the the point and feathers opposite their starting point while still maintaining the path of flight your wrong.

Take the nock of an arrow off and try and push the point into the ground (or a thin wooden dowel) from the top end. It will bow out one direction or the other, you can control the bow by the direction of force that you place on it. If the string is not perfectly aligned with the arrow, the arrow will bend forming a bulge to the opposite side of the plane of motion of the string. String too far left causes a bend to the right, and too far right causes a bend to the left. The severity of the misalignment increases the amplitude of oscillation. However, the arrow is going to hit in basically the same spot if shot at the same distance.

With the arrow rest too far left the arrows initial bend will be to the left because the nock is to the right, and the offset force bends the arrow more than if the string force were perfectly aligned.

I have no idea how long it takes for an arrow to complete one oscillation, as a lot of factors go into that. Spine, FOC, Speed, Cam lean, hand torque etc etc. so depending on when your arrow passes through the paper it may or may not give the proper reading. The direction of travel doesn’t change, and your arrow is still point right or left, but that doesn’t mean that the arrows point never oscillates the opposite while still maintaining direction

This is why you dont paper tune at 3 ft and call it a day. we are talking 1/4ths of an inch here not Ft.

watch the tip and tail of the arrow. It continues to do that down range, just with less severity. That is why paper tuning is a starting point, not an end game. This video is an extreme example as hes a finger shooter but its a great visual to see what im talking about. Modern bows with drop away's have much less, as long as form and tune are in order.

[video=youtube_share;f1yjcKzIT9c]https://youtu.be/f1yjcKzIT9c[/video]


This is why guys with crappy form cant shoot consistently, hand torque, Face pressure, trigger punching, can all induce that oscillation. you want to minimize that as soon as possible, a stable arrow, is an accurate arrow