Broadheads Hitting to the Right. New Arrows? Arrow Build Help / Advice

[Shawn_Guinn]

I’m no pro but I build my own arrows and find going stiffer always ends up easier to micro tune. I have made slightly weak arrows work but it’s a pain and my form has to be impeccable. I don’t even paper tune any more, bare shafts tell no lies. With your bows ibo and your desire to shoot really long shafts 300 is the starting point IMO. I would also tend to agree your pre lean on the cam seems excessive. FWIW any pro shop pushing carbon express I would shy away from personally.

 

[BenchToField]

I’m no pro but I build my own arrows and find going stiffer always ends up easier to micro tune. I have made slightly weak arrows work but it’s a pain and my form has to be impeccable. I don’t even paper tune any more, bare shafts tell no lies. With your bows ibo and your desire to shoot really long shafts 300 is the starting point IMO. I would also tend to agree your pre lean on the cam seems excessive. FWIW any pro shop pushing carbon express I would shy away from personally.

Thanks for your response. This shop isn't pushing carbon express. I bought these arrow nearly 10 years ago. I put them through deer and just keep using them. Found some more on eBay a while back. Picked them up. I had no idea I was under spined. I'll be going with 300's most likely.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

So the whole point of new stings, according to the bow tech, was my cable design would not allow him to put lean in the cam. The lean he has on the cam crosses above the peep sight if I'm doing this right. See below photo.


View attachment 433635

The arrow shaft is obscuring the photo a bit, but it sure looks like that is a static yoke connected to the top cam. If so, you can adjust twists in the yoke legs to adjust cam lean. To fix broadheads hitting right of field points, add twist(s) to the left leg of the yoke and remove the same number of twist(s) from the right leg.

 

[BenchToField]

The arrow shaft is obscuring the photo a bit, but it sure looks like that is a static yoke connected to the top cam. If so, you can adjust twists in the yoke legs to adjust cam lean. To fix broadheads hitting right of field points, add twist(s) to the left leg of the yoke and remove the same number of twist(s) from the right leg.
View attachment 434759

If they add more twists to the left, wouldn't that make the cam lean even more to the left? If so, its almost leaning a bit too much for my comfort as is.

 

[stanginthe11s]

its always hard to tell based on a photo but we don't know where the bottom cam is and by the looks it appears the top is too far over. it also appears that the string, rest and sight are not lined up but that could just be the angle of the photo. with rest up the string should be center of rest and sight pin should be center of string also, is that the case?

 

[Mighty Mouse]

If they add more twists to the left, wouldn't that make the cam lean even more to the left? If so, its almost leaning a bit too much for my comfort as is.

Yes, that would rotate the cam counterclockwise further away from vertical. If you're not comfortable increasing the amount of cam lean, rest windage is the only other knob you can turn on the bow to adjust the horizontal tune. If you do decide to yoke tune, I would suggest first checking to see if ATA and draw weight are in spec. If they're not, adjust cable twists to get them there before proceeding to yoke tune.

As has been previously mentioned, arrow spine might be part of your problem. Reducing draw weight and/or point weight is an easy way to test the effect of stiffening dynamic spine.

Vane contact is another thing to check for. Have you confirmed that the vanes aren't hitting the cables or rest?

 

[EchoLimaKilo]

No shortage of suggestions here but my draw length and poundage are the same so here’s what I’ve been doing. I’ve done a bit of playing with arrow lengths and spine lately out of my 70# bow (also a 29.5” draw). Both setups worked well but I’ve opted for the shorter arrow for a slightly higher foc.

Started with a 30” gold tip xt hunter 300, standard 12gr insert, 100 gr head and 50gr worth of their “fact” weights. Shot well but didn’t like the extra arrow length so I cut them down.

For this I basically drew the bow and held it hard against the back wall (basically if I’m adrenaline filled and draw the bow hard) then had the wife mark the arrow about 1/4” in front of my rest to keep from having a broadhead pop an arrow loose by hitting the rest. Cut it at that mark and it was right at 27.5” (-2.5” from the original).

Those arrows are 9.3 gr/inch so I lost about 23 grains in cutting the arrow shorter but added a 20 gr fact weight up front in addition to the 50. These weigh about 480gr each, roughly 270 fps. Of course you could drop that 20gr weight and pick up a little more speed/stiffen the spine.

Pretty big fan of the whole weight system gt has, let’s you play with foc and spine pretty easily without having to build a whole new setup. Might try picking that up and see how things react with the new arrows.

 

[BenchToField]

No shortage of suggestions here but my draw length and poundage are the same so here’s what I’ve been doing. I’ve done a bit of playing with arrow lengths and spine lately out of my 70# bow (also a 29.5” draw). Both setups worked well but I’ve opted for the shorter arrow for a slightly higher foc.

Started with a 30” gold tip xt hunter 300, standard 12gr insert, 100 gr head and 50gr worth of their “fact” weights. Shot well but didn’t like the extra arrow length so I cut them down.

For this I basically drew the bow and held it hard against the back wall (basically if I’m adrenaline filled and draw the bow hard) then had the wife mark the arrow about 1/4” in front of my rest to keep from having a broadhead pop an arrow loose by hitting the rest. Cut it at that mark and it was right at 27.5” (-2.5” from the original).

Those arrows are 9.3 gr/inch so I lost about 23 grains in cutting the arrow shorter but added a 20 gr fact weight up front in addition to the 50. These weigh about 480gr each, roughly 270 fps. Of course you could drop that 20gr weight and pick up a little more speed/stiffen the spine.

Pretty big fan of the whole weight system gt has, let’s you play with foc and spine pretty easily without having to build a whole new setup. Might try picking that up and see how things react with the new arrows.

This is what a 31" arrow looks like on my bow. It's 29" to the front of the shelf. I always shoot fix blades.

 

[BenchToField]

its always hard to tell based on a photo but we don't know where the bottom cam is and by the looks it appears the top is too far over. it also appears that the string, rest and sight are not lined up but that could just be the angle of the photo. with rest up the string should be center of rest and sight pin should be center of string also, is that the case?

Yes, it's all centered. It was the angle of the photo. The top cam does have a good lean to it.

 

[BenchToField]

Yes, that would rotate the cam counterclockwise further away from vertical. If you're not comfortable increasing the amount of cam lean, rest windage is the only other knob you can turn on the bow to adjust the horizontal tune. If you do decide to yoke tune, I would suggest first checking to see if ATA and draw weight are in spec. If they're not, adjust cable twists to get them there before proceeding to yoke tune.

As has been previously mentioned, arrow spine might be part of your problem. Reducing draw weight and/or point weight is an easy way to test the effect of stiffening dynamic spine.

Vane contact is another thing to check for. Have you confirmed that the vanes aren't hitting the cables or rest?

I shot about 20-30 arrows in front of the bow tech. I don't think it's a vane hitting issue. We both shot bullet holes through paper. I think it's an arrow spine issue.

 

[EchoLimaKilo]

I do too, obviously might be different on your setup but I just let my fixed blades sit over the top of my shelf on both bows.

This bow has a hamskea epsilon, the other one is a qad ultra rest. Both work with slick trick magnums although these days I’ve been using viper tricks.

If you take your arrow and rest it on the side of your d loop and then put the front in your rest you should be able to line it up and slide it back to see if the broadhead has room. All good if you prefer it past the shelf, just saying it should probably be an option for ya.

 

[BenchToField]

UPDATE: I went back to the shop and shot both 300 spine and 250 spine bare shaft arrows through paper then did some general shooting at 10-15 yards with the tech. I was getting perfect bullet holes with 250 spine, 50 grain insert, 100 grain tip, 30-31 inch arrow through paper. They were landing perfectly straight in the target.

With 300 spine, the fletching and nock would land left of the field point, at an angle, no matter what tip weight. I believe that's referred to nock left. When we started to add heavier point weights to the 250 spine (125, 150), the arrow would do the same thing. Arrow would strike on an angle, fletching and nock to the left of the field point.

Ok so here's where I could use your help. If arrows are impacting with the fletching to left, field point to the right of the fletching. That would be a left tear correct?

If that's correct, then the chart below says to add twist to the right yoke cable or take twists off on the left.



Here is a photo of my bow set up as of right now. Do I have this marked correctly? To me, the cam is leaning to the left. If you add twist to the yoke cable on the right or take twist off the left, wouldn't this bring my cam that is leaning left more towards center? And if so, would that fix the arrows from landing fletching and nock left of the field point?



The other weird thing is, according the app, a 250 grain x-impact with a 50 grain insert and 100 grain tip would be towards on the stiff side. It's almost like anytime I shot an arrow that the app would put in the "optimal" green rage, Id get this nock left. But these arrows on the stiffer side flew straight.



I understand the bow needs to be tuned to the arrow. I ordered some RIP TKO's in 250. I can see from the app that I can add weight to the tip to bring the spine more into optimal range. Yes, that brings up my arrow weight and lowers my FPS. Since the 250s seem to be shooting better as the bow is currently set up, plus the fact I don't know how many more years the Alphamax will be in the main shooting bow position. I figured the 250s would give me more versatility if I go with a faster shooting bow in the future.

Thanks for your help guys!

 

[ResearchinStuff]

you cam lean is severe (as we have pointed out a few times). Honestly, look at your string where it goes onto your cam, the change of direction is several degrees, the bend is clear in the picture. Because of this, the powerstroke of the bow is not properly aligned, and tuning is a nightmare. Is the lean on your bottom cam this bad too?

anyhow, I theorize that in this condition, where the powerstroke of the string is grossly out of line with the long axis of the shaft, inducing tremendous flex in the arrow, only the excessively stiff shaft is straightening back out by the time it hits the target, while the others are still flexing around and trying to dampen out. Add a bit of tip weight and weaken the dynamic spine, and it no longer damps out as quickly.

The cam lean, top and bottom, has to be set to something reasonable first. For the top cam, use the yoke adjustments you've already identified, left yoke longer, right yoke shorter need to be made. Once it's in the ballpark (field point tip hits the string right at the nock point is reasonable), reshoot the various arrows and see what the arrows are telling you about proper spine.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

UPDATE: I went back to the shop and shot both 300 spine and 250 spine bare shaft arrows through paper then did some general shooting at 10-15 yards with the tech. I was getting perfect bullet holes with 250 spine, 50 grain insert, 100 grain tip, 30-31 inch arrow through paper. They were landing perfectly straight in the target.

With 300 spine, the fletching and nock would land left of the field point, at an angle, no matter what tip weight. I believe that's referred to nock left. When we started to add heavier point weights to the 250 spine (125, 150), the arrow would do the same thing. Arrow would strike on an angle, fletching and nock to the left of the field point.

Ok so here's where I could use your help. If arrows are impacting with the fletching to left, field point to the right of the fletching. That would be a left tear correct?

If that's correct, then the chart below says to add twist to the right yoke cable or take twists off on the left.

View attachment 435363

Here is a photo of my bow set up as of right now. Do I have this marked correctly? To me, the cam is leaning to the left. If you add twist to the yoke cable on the right or take twist off the left, wouldn't this bring my cam that is leaning left more towards center? And if so, would that fix the arrows from landing fletching and nock left of the field point?

View attachment 435367

The other weird thing is, according the app, a 250 grain x-impact with a 50 grain insert and 100 grain tip would be towards on the stiff side. It's almost like anytime I shot an arrow that the app would put in the "optimal" green rage, Id get this nock left. But these arrows on the stiffer side flew straight.

View attachment 435371View attachment 435370

I understand the bow needs to be tuned to the arrow. I ordered some RIP TKO's in 250. I can see from the app that I can add weight to the tip to bring the spine more into optimal range. Yes, that brings up my arrow weight and lowers my FPS. Since the 250s seem to be shooting better as the bow is currently set up, plus the fact I don't know how many more years the Alphamax will be in the main shooting bow position. I figured the 250s would give me more versatility if I go with a faster shooting bow in the future.

Thanks for your help guys!

The charts below from Gold Tip have always worked for me. Their recommended adjustments for left/right tears are opposite of what you posted.



There's no harm in trying to yoke tune opposite of what Gold Tip's chart says...just takes a bow press and a little time. If adding twists to the right yoke and removing twists from the left yoke decreases the nock left tendency, go with it. If that makes it worse, adjust the yokes in the opposite direction.

Studying paper tears and angle of entry is okay for initial tuning, but broadheads and field points grouping together is your ultimate goal. Are your broadheads still landing right of your field points?

 

[BenchToField]

The charts below from Gold Tip have always worked for me. Their recommended adjustments for left/right tears are opposite of what you posted.
View attachment 435388
View attachment 435389

There's no harm in trying to yoke tune opposite of what Gold Tip's chart says...just takes a bow press and a little time. If adding twists to the right yoke and removing twists from the left yoke decreases the nock left tendency, go with it. If that makes it worse, adjust the yokes in the opposite direction.

Studying paper tears and angle of entry is okay for a starting point, but broadheads and field points grouping together is your ultimate goal. Are your broadheads still landing right of your field points?

Isn't that something. They are opposite.

I haven't shot the stiffer arrows yet. They are on order. The goal is to get different arrows. Find a configuration that works well as a starting point. Then move to broadheads and HOPEFULLY the stiffer arrow configuration fixes the grouping problem.

 

[BenchToField]

you cam lean is severe (as we have pointed out a few times). Honestly, look at your string where it goes onto your cam, the change of direction is several degrees, the bend is clear in the picture. Because of this, the powerstroke of the bow is not properly aligned, and tuning is a nightmare. Is the lean on your bottom cam this bad too?

anyhow, I theorize that in this condition, where the powerstroke of the string is grossly out of line with the long axis of the shaft, inducing tremendous flex in the arrow, only the excessively stiff shaft is straightening back out by the time it hits the target, while the others are still flexing around and trying to dampen out. Add a bit of tip weight and weaken the dynamic spine, and it no longer damps out as quickly.

The cam lean, top and bottom, has to be set to something reasonable first. For the top cam, use the yoke adjustments you've already identified, left yoke longer, right yoke shorter need to be made. Once it's in the ballpark (field point tip hits the string right at the nock point is reasonable), reshoot the various arrows and see what the arrows are telling you about proper spine.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I mentioned the severe cam lean to the tech, he mentioned we could take it out and start over but we never got to that point. We focused in on arrow spine. Based on how I view the bottom cam, I don't see much, if any lean at all.

I think your theory is right. We should have set the bow back to where an arrow crosses at the d loop. Then test arrows. I probably would have still gone with the 250's to pick up weight but we'll see how this turns out.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Marble]

If you can change back to 300s it's more what you'll need. 250s seem weigh out of your specs. Additionally, an arrow that is weaker spined will generally do a little better at longer range. You may get it to tune correctly through paper, but at distance it will suffer.

Your tech doesn't seem to know what they are doing. Sounds like he is just selling stuff.

Keep a few things in mind, it goes both ways, tuning the bow to the arrow, and the arrow to the bow. It just depends on all the details and such. The end goal, like mentioned above, get the powerstroke of the arrow directly down the center of shaft. Putting a really stiff shaft on there will hide some imperfections during tuning. It's a band aid.

Lastly, with archery, if you change one thing, you change everything.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[BenchToField]

If you can change back to 300s it's more what you'll need. 250s seem weigh out of your specs. Additionally, an arrow that is weaker spined will generally do a little better at longer range. You may get it to tune correctly through paper, but at distance it will suffer.

Your tech doesn't seem to know what they are doing. Sounds like he is just selling stuff.

Keep a few things in mind, it goes both ways, tuning the bow to the arrow, and the arrow to the bow. It just depends on all the details and such. The end goal, like mentioned above, get the powerstroke of the arrow directly down the center of shaft. Putting a really stiff shaft on there will hide some imperfections during tuning. It's a band aid.

Lastly, with archery, if you change one thing, you change everything.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

I just want my broadheads to hit in the same spot as my field points. Down I am down a deep dark rabbit hole. I can always bring the 250s into spine specs if I add tip weight and keep them long. Then again, 300's might be the ticket. At this point, I'm not sure what to do other than get the bow back in spec and keep tinkering until I learn more and figure this out.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

if you have an elk hunt this year time is really not on your side at all, you've got like a week to get it sorted out before going with a bandaid (sight adjustment).

I agree that your tech seems to be lacking in knowledge, in you area are there any other shops? archery clubs? WKR's or AT'ers with a bowpress who could help you out?

 

[BenchToField]

if you have an elk hunt this year time is really not on your side at all, you've got like a week to get it sorted out before going with a bandaid (sight adjustment).

I agree that your tech seems to be lacking in knowledge, in you area are there any other shops? archery clubs? WKR's or AT'ers with a bowpress who could help you out?

I'm definitely feeling the pressure to get this figured out. I'd much rather be shooting than going through this at this point. I think I'm going to head back to the same shop, have them set the bow back up with a cam lean that has an arrow crossing at the d loop. Make sure there isn't any advanced timing. Rest is where its supposed to be. Then when the arrows come in, I'll hot glue some different inserts in and see what I can get bare shaft tuning wise.

I don't want to come down on the tech, he's an IBO world champion with a longbow and an accomplished hunter. Nice guy and has been helpful. When he shoots the same bow, same arrow, he gets an exact oppose reaction out of the arrow. Nock right. There could be factors in my grip, form, release arm angle, draw length, who knows. Plus the bow is 13 years old. If nothing else, I'm sure learning a lot. Whatever I spend will be cheaper than a college education and I can be that more equip to help my sons when they are of age. I'll get this figured out.