Bear defense - gun shooting tactics???

[Desk Jockey]

I have read plenty of articles on how to use bear spray - distance, duration of spray, wind considerations - but can’t recall anything similar for guns. A bit of an academic question, but assuming you are using a gun for bear defense, what is the best shooting tactic.

Realizing that things may be a bit rushed if a bear charges and it will be hard enough to get the gun in play. So, assume this for a moment, a bear is at 15yards and acting in a threatening manner. You have your gun out and ready. It charges and you think it isn’t a bluff. You make the determination to shoot.

Is it just a straight mag or cylinder dump as fast as you can? Warning shot? Center mass? Brain pan? Does it change if you are using a shotgun with slugs vs a handgun?

 

[jhm2023]

Here is my .02 and limited experience so take it with a grain of salt. I have a few half body bear mounts around my house and randomly when I get bored I put on my chest holster and do dry fire practice at the mounts from various angles and usually have my wife say when to help keep it a little random or somewhat unexpected. With a pistol I practice putting the first shot in the front of the chest slightly to one side in an attempt to break the bear down and slow it up. All follow up shots after that go to the center of the face/head as fast as I can. I've practiced this with dry fire in the house countless times and live on the range at card board cut outs. It's best to train for where you are going to shoot and what you will do because after all the body cant go where your mind hasn't been (when then thinking).

A year and a half ago my wife and I were charged by a mating pair of grizz in the spring. The sow charged first and my practice kicked in instinctively once she crossed the 10 yard mark which is my comfort threshold for an animal that can run 35 mph. She took 4 shots before the charge stopped at which point the boar followed right behind her. The first shot to the shoulder dropped him dead on the spot. I'm sure he wasn't as amped up or as pissed as the sow was.

Overall I'm really glad I had practiced both dry and live for the scenario. Pistol was a Ruger super redhawk toklat in .454 Casull shooting 300 gr. Swift a-frames at 1,600 fps. I have since switched to a 460 Rowland with a 16 round capacity and lower recoil because being left with one round in the cylinder and the slower follow up shots was an eye opener for me. I practice the same drill with my Marlin 45-70.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Wow. That is a close call! Glad you were OK.

 

[dangerousD]

Here is my .02 and limited experience so take it with a grain of salt. I have a few half body bear mounts around my house and randomly when I get bored I put on my chest holster and do dry fire practice at the mounts from various angles and usually have my wife say when to help keep it a little random or somewhat unexpected. With a pistol I practice putting the first shot in the front of the chest slightly to one side in an attempt to break the bear down and slow it up. All follow up shots after that go to the center of the face/head as fast as I can. I've practiced this with dry fire in the house countless times and live on the range at card board cut outs. It's best to train for where you are going to shoot and what you will do because after all the body cant go where your mind hasn't been (when then thinking).

A year and a half ago my wife and I were charged by a mating pair of grizz in the spring. The sow charged first and my practice kicked in instinctively once she crossed the 10 yard mark which is my comfort threshold for an animal that can run 35 mph. She took 4 shots before the charge stopped at which point the boar followed right behind her. The first shot to the shoulder dropped him dead on the spot. I'm sure he wasn't as amped up or as pissed as the sow was.

Overall I'm really glad I had practiced both dry and live for the scenario. Pistol was a Ruger super redhawk toklat in .454 Casull shooting 300 gr. Swift a-frames at 1,600 fps. I have since switched to a 460 Rowland with a 16 round capacity and lower recoil because being left with one round in the cylinder and the slower follow up shots was an eye opener for me. I practice the same drill with my Marlin 45-70.

Wow! Hard to imagine being any more prepared than that and having things work out as practiced. Very well done! I’m not so sure your first sentence about “limited experience” is accurate.

 

[sndmn11]

I have read plenty of articles on how to use bear spray - distance, duration of spray, wind considerations - but can’t recall anything similar for guns. A bit of an academic question, but assuming you are using a gun for bear defense, what is the best shooting tactic.

Realizing that things may be a bit rushed if a bear charges and it will be hard enough to get the gun in play. So, assume this for a moment, a bear is at 15yards and acting in a threatening manner. You have your gun out and ready. It charges and you think it isn’t a bluff. You make the determination to shoot.

Is it just a straight mag or cylinder dump as fast as you can? Warning shot? Center mass? Brain pan? Does it change if you are using a shotgun with slugs vs a handgun?

I am genuinely curious why you would allow an animal that you presume to be deadly, to get to 15 yards, and act in a threatening manner? Think for a minute how quickly a mundane human athlete can cover 15 yards, and then think of how fast and accurately you can shoot whatever firearm you plan on having. Maybe two or two and a half seconds?

Please take the time to assess your scenario as a whole and play through in your head not just the firearms tactics, but also how to avoid getting to a point of being within 15 yards of the deadly animal. I will bet on the deadly animal every time in that close. For me, I would set my limits out to 50ish yards for a stand off line. Any action I take from there is 100% for the purpose of saving my life at that point. CNS shots would be the first choice, but any is acceptable if CNS opportunity is not available. Top off ammunition at any pause while moving to cover/distance, and I am not stopping until the animal is down for good or running the shit for its life. This IS the deadly animal you are armed against in the first place, and their job in life is to eat and make babies. They are not out to play games, and THEIR INTENT IS TO KILL YOU once they decide to come.

 

[Beendare]

I agree with the "Don't let them get right on you" comment. Firing a warning shot can't hurt.

I can tell you that hitting a charging animal with a pistol is difficult- obviously. I used to do hog depredation behind dogs and have had probably between 25-30 charges at close range....those hogs know it intuitively that YOU are the real threat.

Real world; Fully 1/2 or more of my shots inside 20' were misses.

Practice. Even dry fire draw and shoot is good. The key, IMO...is to think "AIM" at the moment of truth. Its a documented fact that many of these police shooting and situations where humans are under pressure....they forget to aim.....

EDIT; as to strategy....you want to make sure your buddy doesn't think he can outrun you....../grin


Seriously, my buddy and i discussed it and in the event of a charge will take a step or two apart if we have time so that at least one guy can use his weapon vs the tendency to huddle and the bear gets the both of you with one swipe.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I am genuinely curious why you would allow an animal that you presume to be deadly, to get to 15 yards, and act in a threatening manner? Think for a minute how quickly a mundane human athlete can cover 15 yards, and then think of how fast and accurately you can shoot whatever firearm you plan on having. Maybe two or two and a half seconds?

Please take the time to assess your scenario as a whole and play through in your head not just the firearms tactics, but also how to avoid getting to a point of being within 15 yards of the deadly animal. I will bet on the deadly animal every time in that close. For me, I would set my limits out to 50ish yards for a stand off line. Any action I take from there is 100% for the purpose of saving my life at that point. CNS shots would be the first choice, but any is acceptable if CNS opportunity is not available. Top off ammunition at any pause while moving to cover/distance, and I am not stopping until the animal is down for good or running the shit for its life. This IS the deadly animal you are armed against in the first place, and their job in life is to eat and make babies. They are not out to play games, and THEIR INTENT IS TO KILL YOU once they decide to come.

Fair point. Perhaps I should have asked the broader question about where the danger zone begins. One poster above says 10 yards. If a bear has 35 mph burst speed then it covers 51 feet per second so 15 yards is about a second of lead time.

I am a middling IDPA shooter with about a one and a half second draw and .10-15 second splits with a 9mm last time I checked. For real world gear and real world situations I would expect to have to double or triple that time for a self defense application. That means I would need to have gun in hand and/ or start a draw at 45-50 yards to think about getting 3-4 shots off if I was charged so your 50 yards makes sense.


I don’t have a lot of grizzly experience, I wonder how would a wild life officer react to a 50 yard self defense shot? I guess if 50 yards is the magic number to open fire then you can’t practically use pepper spray as a non lethal option, right? They only have a 10-12 yards effective range.

 

[Kootenay Hunter]

50 yds would be a tough 'defence' story, unless it was running towards you at that point. I've heard stories of folks hitting a griz broadside at some distance and getting the Nth degree from the COs.

If you can make egress from 50 yds, you should start walking slowly backwards, being prepared if it charges. I've been much closer than that to griz and didn't feel threatened.

There is no hard and fast rules, depends on the area, the bear's attitude, etc.

A lot of folks 'bump' into a griz in thick bush, so hard to say 10 yds is go time, the bear could just get spooked and run the other way.

I always find it interesting to hear the stories of the bluff charges getting close. Did the person know it was a bluff or is just a gambler? Did they think there was some time from the location it put on the brakes to them that they could have sprayed or shot to rectify it?

I think the best case is to be prepared, have spray on hand, be proficient with your firearm and take the situation as it comes. It probably won't play out as you imagine it would in the scenarios in your head.

 

[Formidilosus]

For me, I would set my limits out to 50ish yards for a stand off line. Any action I take from there is 100% for the purpose of saving my life at that point.

You’re going to shoot a grizzly at 50 yards if it huffs or jaw pops at you? Bluff charges?

Should I have killed this one? After all, she huffed, jaw popped, and even charged at less than 10 yards....

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I am a middling IDPA shooter with about a half second draw and .10-15 second splits with a 9mm last time I checked. For real world gear and real world situations I would expect to have to double or triple that time for a self defense application.

You’re already doing one of the best things you can for pistol shooting- action competition.

.5 second draw to hit? What’s your IDPA Classification?

 

[sndmn11]

Fair point. Perhaps I should have asked the broader question about where the danger zone begins. One poster above says 10 yards. If a bear has 35 mph burst speed then it covers 51 feet per second so 15 yards is about a second of lead time.

I am a middling IDPA shooter with about a half second draw and .10-15 second splits with a 9mm last time I checked. For real world gear and real world situations I would expect to have to double or triple that time for a self defense application. That means I would need to have gun in hand and/ or start a draw at 45-50 yards to think about getting 3-4 shots off if I was charged so your 50 yards makes sense.


I don’t have a lot of grizzly experience, I wonder how would a wild life officer react to a 50 yard self defense shot? I guess if 50 yards is the magic number to open fire then you can’t practically use pepper spray as a non lethal option, right? They only have a 10-12 yards effective range.

Perfect, so I think you will understand what I am saying with your IDPA mindset.

50 yards and a deadly predator would get my full attention (cat, grizzly, i am ok with a black bear in CO). I do not care what I am doing at that time, my mindset becomes survival because I believe I am in a poopy situation should that animal decide I am prey. At that distance I am looking for obstacles to put in between myself and that animal, as well as defensible positions, and I am getting there now. Even if that means closing distance to the best location, that is what I will do. That distance is my best guess at what I feel an animal can cover in the time I may need to make a few hits on a moving target. Of course there are a lot of variables there. I also feel like that distance is a good bubble for the animal too. If I ran across one at that distance and they continued doing what they were doing and paid no attention to me, then super, I am not immediately opening fire. If I came across one and I read that I was under focus and body language showed a danger or an approach towards me was attempted, I cannot think that it is any other intent than to come harm me. I feel ok at that distance to try and assess those things.

I understand that there may be times when a surprise encounter occurs within that distance such as the example above in post two or three. My personal perspective on something like that is the animal has a fight or flight response, and I have a fight or flight response. If we both surprise the shit out of each other and the animal doesn't haul ass out of there, the default action is then fight. I do not want to be at 25 yards with a predator where we both surprise the other and he doesn't run off because I know that what it is doing is assessing the best way to attack. You have to remember that your contact with that animal is either 100% accidental, or it is 100% intentional by at least one party involved. If the animal sticks around after a "surprise" encounter, can you really trust that it was a mutual surprise?

I think whether or not someone in a law enforcement capacity would take issue with a 50yd shot would depend on articulated logic supported by evidence. If the bear started hell bent at 50 yards and you put a round on him there and there was track and sign of his approach towards you, is very different than staying on the trigger with it going the other way.

 

[Formidilosus]

I always find it interesting to hear the stories of the bluff charges getting close. Did the person know it was a bluff or is just a gambler? Did they think there was some time from the location it put on the brakes to them that they could have sprayed or shot to rectify it?.

In the instance from the pictures above, calculated risk. I know what my draw speed is to that type of target, know that my splits between shots on the head will be at sub 10 yards, and am decent at body language. She didn’t reach the criteria for me to shoot. When she bluff charged right after the top picture, she pinned gear ears back, took three lunges and pulled up one step from the slack being taken out of the trigger.


This is also a perfect instance of spray not going to work- the wind was straight into our face. One can easily come around a bend or rise and be face to face with one at 10-20 yards. There wasn’t anywhere to go, to the right 10 feet was a lake, to the left 20 feet the base of a hundred foot bluff.


Interestingly that sow had already been suspected of an attack earlier, and a month after this, attacked another person.

 

[JWP58]

Strategy? Fall back on your training, because in a full blown charge you'll revert back to your highest level of training. IE you're going to go into auto pilot, so to speak. I would hope for clearing the holster and putting rounds on target. Or in your scenario, reference the front sight and shoot until the threat is gone, or I'm dead.

I shoot a pistol quite a bit, have received training from many sources, from basic all the way to what I would consider top tier. I would much rather have a long gun in my hands than a pistol.

 

[Jimbob]

Zero experience with Grizzlies so far. If one charges it's getting a warning shot then reaccess the situation. If it keeps coming then the next one is center mass. No pistol for me only a rifle.

In this Gritty video, I would do the same thing and that bear would have had one more step and I would have shot it. Actually, I might have shot after it made it the initial movement towards the hunters before starting to leave.

Bear charge around 9 min mark
YouTube

In this video, I think they did everything right and I would hope to act the same way. Again I would be a split second from shooting the bear.
YouTube

So one warning shot and if the bear doesn't change their mind the next one is center mass. At least that's my plan.

 

[aclawrence]

I think a common misconception especially among ccw guys is that they will somehow magically arise to hero status in a SHTF scenario as a gun toting savior and just blow away the problem. They say in the fieldcraft podcast you will only rise to your level of training. That has really stuck with me. Luckily it sounds like everyone on here is aware of the need for training and proficiency with whatever weapon. I’ve never been in Grizz country but when I am I will be prepared the best I can be just in case.

I think Aron said in one of the podcast he thought the guide should have dropped that bear and joked maybe he actually missed it lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JWP58]

I would also suggest anyone going into griz country that plans on carrying spray to purchase a canister of inert training spray. Practice with it, experiment with how it sprays in different wind conditions.

Same parameters for spray as firearms. In a use of force situation you will always resort back to your highest level of training.

I like to think of it in sports terms. As a former o-lineman, I look back to my college days and see a huge correlation. We practiced and drilled basic footwork and steps every single day. Why? Because in the heat of the moment your reaction must be instinctive, almost autopilot. Watching it in real time done correctly live is pretty cool. You just do it instinctively. Same goes for weapon manipulation and shooting.

 

[sndmn11]

You’re going to shoot a grizzly at 50 yards if it huffs or jaw pops at you? Bluff charges?

Should I have killed this one? After all, she huffed, jaw popped, and even charged at less than 10 yards....

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I sure am not going to sit on a stump and wait to be attacked. I think that if you are going to share the country with an animal you need to be fair to it. Had you made efforts to avoid those bears, would she have reacted to you in that manner? Obviously I was not there, but when you saw those bears would it have been possible to either give them a wide berth or put some distance in between you guys? If I found those bears inside 50 yards I am doing things to avoid a confrontation and not entice one. If I am doing all I can to avoid that confrontation and the bear is doing all they can to bring one to a point, yes, I am unquestionably putting rounds downrange. I am not going to beat a bear, or probably a cat for that matter, in a fight. My advantage is a firearm and distance, and the two are mutually beneficial. I have no desire to allow a predator to take away my advantage of distance.

Keep in mind, with dangerous animals, the folks who get hurt or killed most often are the ones who become too comfortable and complacent with those animals. You very well may be comfortable with a bear or three angry at 10 yards, but I wouldn't be at all. The point that may have gotten over looked in what I wrote before, is that taking action well before a shoot/don't shoot Alamo line in the sand in order to make the crossing of that line as unlikely as possible should be in someone's thoughts as well.

 

[idahohikker]

I'd be worried about using a scoped rifle on a bear in close quarters. Acquiring the target in a scope would take longer than using a pistol site dot and I'm not sure the rifle would be accurate shooting without using the scope. Seems like a shotgun with slugs would be more accurate.

Also, I've wondered if the head or center mass is best as killing/stopping a grizz. I've never seen one.

 

[sndmn11]

I was curious, and googles found this for me. https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/es/species/mammals/grizzly/close_encounters.pdf It seems the USFWS is comfortable giving me 3 seconds for Smokey to go 50 yards to my face.

 

[ElkElkGoose]

The one thing not discussed in the spray vs gun debate is using the noise of the gun as a deterrent. I had one encounter with a grizzly in yellowstone where i only had bear spray and a very weird multiyear stretch of run ins with black bears here in Colorado. So much so that I have a couple of friends who refer to me as "Beartrap"

I have used popping a couple of 10mm rounds at a bears feet to stop long charges or even to get a bear who obviously didnt fear me or was overly curious to get out of dodge. To me, if a bear is close enough to use bear spray thats too close. Id rather stop the situation entirely before it even starts. Granted, some people dont have that option. Bonus, the bear associates a human with something bad for the next guy.

 

[sndmn11]

In this video, I think they did everything right and I would hope to act the same way. Again I would be a split second from shooting the bear.
YouTube

This second video is a good example of what I am talking about. "She started coming back our way" from quite a ways off. They know she has cubs. Rather than letting that bear walk into them, I would have chosen to move to avoid them, get to more open vegetation, more defensible terrain, get upwind.....

I understand there were cuts in the footage and editing took place, but it wasn't a surprise to them that they intersected with those bears.

*For the record, I think both men are great for the industry and the sport