Bear defense - gun shooting tactics???

[Desk Jockey]

You’re already doing one of the best things you can for pistol shooting- action competition.

.5 second draw to hit? What’s your IDPA Classification?[/QUOTE]

My apologies. Post above edited. I most assuredly ain’t that fast. That is a one and a half second draw...Sometimes closer to one...hitting -0...On a dry range at seven yards...Hands in surrender waiting for a buzzer. That is with lightly modded SSP Glock 17, 2.5 pound wolf trigger running a blade tech black ice that had a little armorall on the inside and with no cover. Def not the rig I would take to the woods. I shot sharpshooter and was closing in on expert when my club went “outlaw” a few years back. I haven’t shot a classifier since and shoot quite a bit less since I took up hunting. I still shoot a mix of USPSA, steel challenge and outlaw idpa a few times a year when my schedule and wife allow.


I appreciate the perspectives on the bear defense. I realize there is not a hard and fast rule but the shared experience is helpful.

 

[kickemall]

I agree with the "Don't let them get right on you" comment. Firing a warning shot can't hurt.

I can tell you that hitting a charging animal with a pistol is difficult- obviously. I used to do hog depredation behind dogs and have had probably between 25-30 charges at close range....those hogs know it intuitively that YOU are the real threat.

Real world; Fully 1/2 or more of my shots inside 20' were misses.

Practice. Even dry fire draw and shoot is good. The key, IMO...is to think "AIM" at the moment of truth. Its a documented fact that many of these police shooting and situations where humans are under pressure....they forget to aim.....

I don't know jack about Grizzlies but in my experience with lots of hogs and black bears the info. above is spot on. Especially the part about hitting a charging animal with a pistol is difficult. Its hard enough with an open sighted rifle and to me, a scoped rifle is worse than a pistol or open sights on a rifle and I've had experience with all three. On hogs and black bears often the concussion from a miss is going to turn them but I wouldn't count on that with either, much less so with a grizzly. Practice is the key because your aren't going to be thinking, just reacting.

 

[Battleguy]

.45 acp is too light for brown bear, but I'd guess it would suffice for black bear. Definitely go with hard cast, heavy bullets.

If you're really worried, and you have a pump shotgun, load it with slugs and take that.

If you want to buy a revolver, I'd go with .44 Magnum. No need to get a Casull or a S&W .500 if it's just blackbear.

 

[idahohikker]

Would a shotgun with slugs be more accurate at close range than a pistol? I wonder about the speed of firing multiple rounds? I've only used a shotgun shooting in the air at birds.

 

[Battleguy]

I will be bringing a shotgun along but it will be loaded with 4 buck for those close in yotes. Maybe I could load it with 00 buck for yotes and have it pull double duty for bear defense

 

[Beendare]

.45 acp is too light for brown bear, .....

I'm playing with buffalo bore .45 ACP +P hardcast. They are pretty impressive on multiple sheets of plywood.

My HK's run them stock---so far anyway. My compact Kimber choked on one. Crucial to function test SA's with heavy hardcast.

I've been trying to find .45 super to test but its nowhere to be found here in my area. Bob Wards in MT has the .45 ACP +P hardcast and some 9mm too.

I might have to break down a pick up a 10mm....

 

[tuffcity]

In a use of force situation you will always resort back to your highest level of training.

I respectfully suggest, that in a very high stress situation, you will resort to the highest level of training you have mastered, not the highest level you've trained at... there is a difference.

RC

 

[bowtech840]

My guide in grizzly country carried a shotgun loaded with 2 slugs and 3 00 buck. I asked him why that combination and he said the 2 slugs were for center mass and the following 3 buck shot were to peal the Bears face back in attempt to disorient it while it bleeds out if the slugs don't knock it down. He also suggested taking a knee once the bear is committed to charge so you are not shooting over top of it. I thought "that would take some stones" lol.


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[MattB]

The notion of shooting a bear at 50 yards and self defense are incompatible. Given bears bluff charge, my sense is that if you shoot a bear much outside of 15 yards it will not be defensible.

This comes from a person who has hunted around big bears and talked with AK guides/transporters about how self defense bear shooting investigations have actually gone down and not from a perspective on bear defense informed by IDPA experience.

 

[JWP58]

I respectfully suggest, that in a very high stress situation, you will resort to the highest level of training you have mastered, not the highest level you've trained at... there is a difference.

RC

#Semantics

If you became a bowl of oatmeal during your highest level of training, I would assume when stressed to an autonomic response you would also become a bowl of oatmeal.

The main take away is, if you're going to rely on a side arm to save your life, train with it. And during that training push yourself.

 

[sndmn11]

The notion of shooting a bear at 50 yards and self defense are incompatible. Given bears bluff charge, my sense is that if you shoot a bear much outside of 15 yards it will not be defensible.

This comes from a person who has hunted around big bears and talked with AK guides/transporters about how self defense bear shooting investigations have actually gone down and not from a perspective on bear defense informed by IDPA experience.

I wonder what changes the bear goes through at yards 17 and 16 that turn them into a threat?

If you fired a shot and watched a bear come on a string at full trot from 200 yards out you would let him get within 15 yards? 30mph comes out to 44 feet per second. Your 15 yards gives you 1 second. It sounds like you have seen this before, but it is a pretty neat reporting form. I cannot find anything about yes/no distance, but did see a fill in the blank portion queston about distance. I also dug into 5 AAC 92.410 but can't find anything in any law or published opinions regarding distance. I did find some that very clearly stressed the concept of a case by case examination of circumstances. Heck, you can pop a bear if he is eating your groceries! No maximum distance required. https://fire.ak.blm.gov/content/internal/safety/Forms and Reference/DLP.pdf Imagine on page 5 if the person wrote, "I am aware that a grizzly bear can cover 50 yards in 3 seconds according to the USFWS, and have read findings regarding a grizzly bear's ability to fight on even after being fatally wounded. I am aware that The Alaska Department of Fish and Game suggests that a wounded bear is more dangerous than a healthy bear What To Do If You Have A Conflict With A Bear, Alaska Department of Fish and Game . I am aware that studies of those who train to discharge their firearms in defense of their lives generally report hit percentages below 50%, and sometimes drastically below that level http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf. I know that through my own significant training that my shooting at a relatively small moving target that has an unpredictable path will result in a hit percentage likely similar. The difference between 45 yards and 30 yards, 30 yards and 15 yards, and 15 yards to 0 yards is approximately 1 second per respective segment. I attempted to avoid the bear by moving away and out of its path, I yelled at the bear and made other human associated noise to try and help it choose to turn away. At 50 yards it began a charge, and knowing how quickly the bear could cover ground between itself and I, I knew that 1 extra second would likely be needed to defend my life and here I stand before you alive."

 

[sndmn11]

The notion of shooting a bear at 50 yards and self defense are incompatible. Given bears bluff charge, my sense is that if you shoot a bear much outside of 15 yards it will not be defensible.

This comes from a person who has hunted around big bears and talked with AK guides/transporters about how self defense bear shooting investigations have actually gone down and not from a perspective on bear defense informed by IDPA experience.

I am also very interested to learn how many of those investigations resulted in an attempt to prosecute?

 

[blkntancj]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is adding simulated stress during your firearms training. Shooting quickly and accurately when your heart rate and adrenalin are normal is vastly different from doing the same with an elevated heart rate and adrenalin dump. Speaking from experience, shooting at a target that is an actual threat to you (shooting back in my case as opposed to a charging bear) is a whole different animal. Do wind sprints or calisthenics to get your heart rate elevated prior to each stage of firearms training. Not perfect, but a reasonable way to simulate stress. Also, if you have access to the facilities, practice on moving targets. Tracking a moving target is a skill that needs practice to be effective.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Heck of a discussion. I've had a number of encounters with grizzlies in AK but only a couple of them caused me to pull my sidearm. No shots were taken because no imminent attack scene unfolded. What would make me pull the trigger? A bear aware of my presence and moving toward me would get one trance-breaker (warning shot) and that's it. I've heard plenty of reliable accounts of bears getting a concussive blast at ranges under 50 yards and not even flinching. I'll dedicate one round to it and save the rest of my lead for later use if necessary.

I'm highly unlikely to begin firing defensive rounds toward a bear until they are close. Call me what you will, but I know enough about pistol accuracy to know I'm wasting rounds shooting at a running bear at 30-50 yards. Nothing makes a small target bigger than having it closer. Of course I don't want ANY bear close to me, but I'd like to imagine I've got at least one round dedicated to a face/skull shot in the final 5 yards before impact.

Anyway....experience has shown me that everyone has a plan based on their scenarios. The bear has no plan or predictability. Those who have survived a griz charge and fight will largely tell you everything happened at speed and there was little or no time to consider or debate the response.

I just returned from central AK and we saw 5 grizzlies near camp in the first week. Most of them weren't loafing around. They covered ground in a hurry and if we had been in front of them they would have run up on us with shocking quickness. As it was, we were perched on a hillside above the valley and camp where we could observe. 4 of these bears ran right through a corridor of cover I've walked in many times...and that gave me pause to consider how quickly things can develop.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Quick follow up.

In self defensive there is a concept called “get off the x”. It refers to moving to perturb an attack. If a bear is charging from 12 o’clock is it going to be possible to try to dodge left or right to 9 and 3 to attempt to avoid the attack? I have read that you are not supposed to run from them but I all of about when they are acting in a way that you decide to shoot, then, should you stand your ground (or kneel like that crazy guide above) or shoot and move.

I realize it is a somewhat academic point and situations, terrain, etc will vary. I am just thinking about designing a shooting drill like this one.

Backcountry Bear Defense: A Practice Drill to Drop a Charging Grizzly | Outdoor Life

I am wondering if I should add movement too. Like a the buzzer draw, engage targets from farthest to nearest while moving laterally of back diagonal.

 

[jhm2023]

Stepping off the x to me means getting out of the line of fire and adding just a bit more time and thought process to someone that is or will be shooting at you. When it comes to bears I would stand my ground and concentrate on the shooting that needs to be done. That's my opinion based on a good amount of professional training for the two legged animals and experience with shooting a handful of charging animals to include bears.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I personally would not be thinking about deliberate left/right movement while shooting at an oncoming bear. Why? In most bear terrain I'd be risking a trip-and-fall, thus allowing the bear to arrive on-scene with me in a fetal position. The second reason is one of simple accuracy. If I'm shooting at a bear, I intend to hit it. The bear's movement makes that less likely. My movement would make it even less likely. Best accuracy would have the shooter standing firm and keeping on target right to the moment of impact or dissuasion.

 

[sndmn11]

Since this came up I have tried to find videos of animal charges. Something common with them is that nobody does any sort of reload once they determine to stop shooting. In the MeatEater video linked on the first page, you will see that they take their warning shot(s) but leave their magazines lacking those cartridges. If you are going to train for something like this, it would make sense to train yourself to top off at any chance.

 

[bowrunner81]

Overall I'm really glad I had practiced both dry and live for the scenario. Pistol was a Ruger super redhawk toklat in .454 Casull shooting 300 gr. Swift a-frames at 1,600 fps. I have since switched to a 460 Rowland with a 16 round capacity and lower recoil because being left with one round in the cylinder and the slower follow up shots was an eye opener for me. I practice the same drill with my Marlin 45-70.

What rounds do you use in your Marlin 45-70?

 

[Huntindog45]

A warning shot seems great until you need that last bullet to save your life. I remember a story an old warden told. He was attacked by a bear he had just released and he got six rounds into the bear. He said "funny thing i dont remember hearing a single shot go off but i DISTINCTLY remember hearing the sound of the hammer falling on an empty cylinder the seventh time I pulled the trigger." I want every round possible if it comes down to it.