Bear defense - gun shooting tactics???

[Jimbob]

Since this came up I have tried to find videos of animal charges. Something common with them is that nobody does any sort of reload once they determine to stop shooting. In the MeatEater video linked on the first page, you will see that they take their warning shot(s) but leave their magazines lacking those cartridges. If you are going to train for something like this, it would make sense to train yourself to top off at any chance.

hmmm??? I would not be removing the magazine from my gun until I knew for sure that bear was long gone. Are you saying he should have removed the magazine, shouldered the gun, dug in his pocket for an extra shell, loaded it in the mag, then back into the gun? Way too many "what ifs" could happen with a charging bear close by that I would risk removing the mag from my gun. Sure, when the bear is gone load back up but not when the threat is near. Just my take.

 

[sndmn11]

hmmm??? I would not be removing the magazine from my gun until I knew for sure that bear was long gone. Are you saying he should have removed the magazine, shouldered the gun, dug in his pocket for an extra shell, loaded it in the mag, then back into the gun? Way too many "what ifs" could happen with a charging bear close by that I would risk removing the mag from my gun. Sure, when the bear is gone load back up but not when the threat is near. Just my take.

hmmmmm no. If it were a magazine fed rifle, I would find my magazine first, remove the magazine in the rifle, retain it in the same hand as the fresh magazine, insert fresh magazine. Seems to take longer to type than to perform, and done properly the firearm is sans magazine for 1/4 second and always has a cartridge in the chamber.

If it were a fixed magazine rifle, I would load cartridges through the top.

If it were a shotgun, I would add shells to the tube.

If it were a semi automatic magazinze fed pistol, I would perform a tactical reload as described above.

If it were a revolver I would dump expended casings and replace with fresh cartridges.

I would also not do any of these things while still under immediate duress. Training to be mindful of replenishing ammunition prevents a situation you may fire all shots available in the firearm but not know you are out, the animal may run or be down, you might take a deep breath and think the threat is over, but what happens if it isn't? New threat, go to fire, and then oh poopoo I am out of ammo. In that first video when the guide is yelling, "I've got two more!", why not top off and make it three?

 

[Jimbob]

hmmmmm no. If it were a magazine fed rifle, I would find my magazine first, remove the magazine in the rifle, retain it in the same hand as the fresh magazine, insert fresh magazine. Seems to take longer to type than to perform, and done properly the firearm is sans magazine for 1/4 second and always has a cartridge in the chamber.

If it were a fixed magazine rifle, I would load cartridges through the top.

If it were a shotgun, I would add shells to the tube.

If it were a semi automatic magazinze fed pistol, I would perform a tactical reload as described above.

If it were a revolver I would dump expended casings and replace with fresh cartridges.

I would also not do any of these things while still under immediate duress. Training to be mindful of replenishing ammunition prevents a situation you may fire all shots available in the firearm but not know you are out, the animal may run or be down, you might take a deep breath and think the threat is over, but what happens if it isn't? New threat, go to fire, and then oh poopoo I am out of ammo. In that first video when the guide is yelling, "I've got two more!", why not top off and make it three?

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Most hunters I know do not have a second magazine for their rifle. If it is a top fed rifle then you are opening the bolt and ejecting a cartridge, pointless because you are removing one bullet to only add one more. and now you have nothing in the chamber. Opening a revolver and pulling out the one spent casing and adding a new one means nothing is in the chamber. I could see grabbing a shotgun shell and feeding the magazine from below or replacing a pistol mag as both of those actions keep the gun ready to go but still not when the bear is anywhere around.

In the video when the guide yells "only 2 more" that grizzly is standing 12 yds away. You think he should try and change mags or add more bullets to his gun? That would be a horrible decision.

 

[sndmn11]

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Most hunters I know do not have a second magazine for their rifle. If it is a top fed rifle then you are opening the bolt and ejecting a cartridge, pointless because you are removing one bullet to only add one more. and now you have nothing in the chamber. Opening a revolver and pulling out the one spent casing and adding a new one means nothing is in the chamber. I could see grabbing a shotgun shell and feeding the magazine from below or replacing a pistol mag as both of those actions keep the gun ready to go but still not when the bear is anywhere around.

In the video when the guide yells "only 2 more" that grizzly is standing 12 yds away. You think he should try and change mags or add more bullets to his gun? That would be a horrible decision.

I guess that would highlight the potential need to carry an additional magazine or two. The times I have rifle hunted, I have carried an additional magazine, but do what you wish.

If that bear in the video I referenced is at 12 yards, I missed that in the narration or description and I have never been one to look at video or photo . You are missing the point of my statement and seem to be focusing on points that in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter. The point is to not forget to top off when you can. As has been discussed prior, we all have different ideas of safety and threat. You and I might be shoulder to shoulder in the same situation and you might feel safe and I might feel a threat, our actions would likely be consistent with our own perception of the situation. Just like in video two, one of the two people fires their rifle. I am not saying EVERYONE should reload at the exact same time, I am saying that being mindful of your ammunition during training will translate into real life better than not. Training for scenarios that have grave consequences requires ANY possibility to be thought of and a solution practiced before the possibility becomes a reality.

If I had a floor plate or blind magazine style rifle and were heading into bear country, I would know before hand if I am able to reload quickly, how long it takes me to reload, if my particular action is conducive to a tactical type reload, how to perform that if possible. I might even give it a whirl to try and find a solution to do the same one handed or weak handed. One might even find through training that it would just be wisest to fire all cartridges in the rifle until empty regardless of if a threat is tapering off or not since there may be a fear of such a rifle being far too clumsy to reload.

The only way you overcome deficiencies is through training. A lot of times you are not able to identify those deficiencies without training. You might go grab your favorite blind magazine rifle out of curiosity tonight and ask yourself if there is a solution to the problem of pointlessness, and may be able to solve that. You might not, who knows. Since the Rockies have a day game today, I will probably grab my wife's rifle and do just that tonight.

I am advocating a mindset of thinking through potential issues at the point of training, so that you have a tool box of proficient skills that can be applied if needed. If you feel that a tactical type reload will always be a horrible decision then that is your prerogative and you can surely do what you wish. Maybe someone will be reading this thread and realize they do not know how to reload their firearm of choice under stress and correct that. I would be willing to bet that if you watched some videos of African animal charges, you will find PHs religiously topping off.

So again, do what you wish, but I hope that one's safety is never violated because they thought a point of training was too far fetched to prepare for.

 

[Jimbob]

Training to reload quickly could be useful, I will agree with that. How could it hurt? Also, topping up after the bear is gone is just common sense. BUT I'm sure you would be jacked up on adrenaline at that point and might forget unless you have made the idea of reloading second nature after shooting. I get what your saying now.

I just know for me that I wont be touching my clip or opening my action until I am sure that a bear who just charged me is long gone.

 

[sndmn11]

Training to reload quickly could be useful, I will agree with that. How could it hurt? Also, topping up after the bear is gone is just common sense. BUT I'm sure you would be jacked up on adrenaline at that point and might forget unless you have made the idea of reloading second nature after shooting. I get what your saying now.

I just know for me that I wont be touching my clip or opening my action until I am sure that a bear who just charged me is long gone.

Good deal, I typically type on here at work, and sometimes I type a paragraph then go do something and so on and so forth and it is broken up and not as well written as it could be. So, I am glad that it made more sense this time. I think proficiently knowing how to reload with various intents with the firearm that a person will be using will give confidence to know when doing so might be best. In the scenario of shots fired and a downed animal, one may want to approach that animal and it would make sense to reload/top off in whatever manner at that time. So, I can think of one very plausible situation where the animal would still be around, but the skill would be needed. Firearm handling is not a given with a fair shooter. I know I have never practiced any of the things that we have debated, I don't have the Grizzly worry here, and would guess many fall in that same boat.

So back to the original question and my intent in typing out my thoughts; focusing solely on the trigger pulling aspect of this scenario in "gun shooting tactics" is just part of the puzzle. Other skills should get some thought as well.

 

[dtrkyman]

I have zero bear experience, If I happen to hunt grizz/brown bear territory I would carry a shotgun and shoot hand loaded Tss(tungsten super shot) if they make it in a large enough size, its much more dense than lead or hevi shot and does not deform. Otherwise Hevi shot makes buck shot sized loads.

I am much more comfortable with a scatter gun than a pistol and have a light weight 20 ga that would be great to carry, its actually my turkey gun. Holds 5 but an extended mag tube may be added!


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[sndmn11]

You might go grab your favorite blind magazine rifle out of curiosity tonight and ask yourself if there is a solution to the problem of pointlessness, and may be able to solve that. You might not, who knows. Since the Rockies have a day game today, I will probably grab my wife's rifle and do just that tonight.

I did just this tonight. My wife's rifle is a Weatherby Vanguard short action (7-08), it is the Camilla model so it has a hinged floor plate. I believe that the Vanguard action would be best described as a push feed. I spent 1-2 minutes finding a solution.

Taking my fore-end hand and sliding it back so that my fingers can cover the ejection port/top of action, trigger hand opens the bolt and moves it it to the rear releasing the cartridge from the bolt ( I think having a few cartridges in hand before doing this would be most effective), your support hand fingers covering the action keep the cartridge in place. Support hand slides forward to fore-end, trigger hand pushes extracted but not ejected cartridge back into magazine and continues with in hand cartridges.

Although far from ideal, this would work just fine if practiced.

 

[jhm2023]

What rounds do you use in your Marlin 45-70?

I use my own handloads I made up specifically for bear defense and moose hunting. 325gr Lehigh xtreme defense loaded over 51.0 grains of H4198 in starline nickel brass. Average velocity 2,136 fps out of my 16.5" 1895TSBL

 

[Beendare]

Thinking you have time to reload in a bear charge situation just shows a lack of understanding.

I used to think 00 buckshot was the way to go....until I had buddies tell me their buckshot to the face of a brownie on the Ak peninsula just pissed the bear off.

 

[sndmn11]

Thinking you have time to reload in a bear charge situation just shows a lack of understanding.

How so? If one is going to rely on a firearm for their life, it would make sense to know how to manipulate it. If you look into the recent fatality in Wyoming, you might find that unfamiliarity with the pistol on site resulted in the pistol never being used. Part of tactics and training is knowledge of your firearm and how it operates.

 

[MattB]

The shooting skills aspect obviously translates from organized pistol shooting to dealing with a bear attack, but from what I have read it seems like there are a lot of techniques/instincts that may work well when dealing against an armed human attacker that would work against you in dealing with a bear attack. Some of the pistol training concepts that have been referenced as worthy strategies in a bear attack such as moving to cover, the x thing, and the focus on reloading are tone deaf IMO.

It might be of interest to you to identify someone who you think is credible in dealing with bear interactions and run some of your ideas by them. I wouldn't be surprised if some bring a chuckle.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Rule #1: Don't waste your ammo early in the encounter. Save it for SHTF time.

Rule #2: Back away if possible. Don't run. You can't defend when running. Bears like it when you run.

Rule #3: Know exactly where your reloads are and keep them handy. If you make it thru Round 1....put them in when you can.

Rule #4: If you get hurt, apply alcohol immediately. If you don't get hurt....apply alcohol later.

 

[Ray]

Having been through a few bear safety classes for my various jobs here in AK, this is what I can share.

What ever defensive system you select, make sure you can deploy it in 1.5 seconds or less. If your bear spray is in a pocket on your pack, it will take several seconds to dig it out. If your shotgun is strapped to your pack it will take several seconds to get it off and use it. If you carry your defensive system in such a manner that you can't get it in operation (armed, safety off, and aimed) in 1.5 seconds or less rethink your system and how you carry it.

Learn how to acquire your sites for close quarters battle. You have to be able to aim your weapon quickly. Aiming requires two points of reference. Having a large front site on a pistol helps speed up this process. Peep sights on a long arm help speed this up. With peep sights on a long arm you want a bright dot for the front and a large aperture for the rear. However, even rifle sites like the ones on a deer slayer slug barrel will work better than just the front bead on a short shotgun barrel. You cannot aim with only one point of reference on a long arm.

If you are using a pistol, you have to practice drawing the weapon and acquiring the front site on target. I have a big dot site system for my Redhawk from 24/7XS. For CQB shooting its the cat's ass. I struggled for years with the factory hunting/target sites on the Redhawk and quick shooting. The big dot sights changed the situation from a "I don't think this is possible." to a "this is the easiest thing I've ever done." It was as if the gun was aiming its self. I know its not, but once you know how to shoot a pistol the big dot system makes it seriously easy...and fast...stoopid fast. And if you decide to use a pistol, you need a few thousand rounds of practice to burn the sight picture in to your mind. I took a pistol marksmanship class in college decades ago. That target shooting and all the other stuff in my lifestyle helped me understand what I can and can't do with a pistol.

For a shotgun you have to figure out how to make, and keep, it tactical ready that is also safe. For my 870, I empty the mag tube and chamber. Charge the weapon, then pull the trigger on the empty chamber. This releases the bolt lock system. Load the mag tube and leave the chamber empty. Now all I have to do is stroke it and pull the trigger. I learned this in a classroom setting and thought it was kinda stoopid. However, out on the range I was able to pick the weapon up off a table, stroke it, aim it, and put two rounds into a 6" circle at 15 yards in under 2 seconds. Having handled shotguns, specifically 870's, for decades helped. Being forced as a child to learn how to shoot with open iron sights also helped. If you are of the modern age and have only used optical sights you are at a disadvantage. There are expensive solutions though.

You also need to practice with live ammo on a moving target. I have only had one class that provided that. One of the funnest days on the range ever. One of the scariest as well. A bear target on a wheeled cart being pulled towards you by an ATV behind you at even 15mph is enough to jack you up. Almost like the real thing. When you are jacked up safety issues come along. Lots of extra work has to go into setting up the range to be safe. But its so much fun. And you will quickly learn what you are and are not capable of.

Do not use a shotgun with a pistol grip. You can't aim the weapon well and you can't control the site picture very well under recoil. It will slow you down on the second shot. And unless you have really strong wrists you probably won't get a second aimed shot off in less than 2 seconds.

For all your firearms they need to be tuned to remove faults caused by design or machining. I have had 870's fall apart due to the poor build at the factory. New Redhawks have a sear spring issue I am told. You want stuff to work when it needs to work.

 

[Ray]

LINK

Speaking of bear defense, here is the latest article on the latest bear mauling in AK.

 

[rodney482]

I can draw/shoot 6 steel 8” plates at 25 feet in under 2 sec.

However when I got charged by a black bear all I got done doing was yelling at it. Its the surprise you have to get over... ugh

I approach every car I stop with the mindset they are going to try to shoot me. We do highspeed shoot no shoots all the time.

None of that helped me when a bear busted out of the brush 20 yds from me.

You’re going to shoot a grizzly at 50 yards if it huffs or jaw pops at you? Bluff charges?

Should I have killed this one? After all, she huffed, jaw popped, and even charged at less than 10 yards....

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You’re already doing one of the best things you can for pistol shooting- action competition.

.5 second draw to hit? What’s your IDPA Classification?

 

[Formidilosus]

I can draw/shoot 6 steel 8” plates at 25 feet in under 2 sec.

However when I got charged by a black bear all I got done doing was yelling at it. Its the surprise you have to get over... ugh

I approach every car I stop with the mindset they are going to try to shoot me. We do highspeed shoot no shoots all the time.

None of that helped me when a bear busted out of the brush 20 yds from me.

So so you’re a USPSA GM?

 

[SunShine]

Here is my .02 and limited experience so take it with a grain of salt. I have a few half body bear mounts around my house and randomly when I get bored I put on my chest holster and do dry fire practice at the mounts from various angles and usually have my wife say when to help keep it a little random or somewhat unexpected. With a pistol I practice putting the first shot in the front of the chest slightly to one side in an attempt to break the bear down and slow it up. All follow up shots after that go to the center of the face/head as fast as I can. I've practiced this with dry fire in the house countless times and live on the range at card board cut outs. It's best to train for where you are going to shoot and what you will do because after all the body cant go where your mind hasn't been (when then thinking).

A year and a half ago my wife and I were charged by a mating pair of grizz in the spring. The sow charged first and my practice kicked in instinctively once she crossed the 10 yard mark which is my comfort threshold for an animal that can run 35 mph. She took 4 shots before the charge stopped at which point the boar followed right behind her. The first shot to the shoulder dropped him dead on the spot. I'm sure he wasn't as amped up or as pissed as the sow was.

Overall I'm really glad I had practiced both dry and live for the scenario. Pistol was a Ruger super redhawk toklat in .454 Casull shooting 300 gr. Swift a-frames at 1,600 fps. I have since switched to a 460 Rowland with a 16 round capacity and lower recoil because being left with one round in the cylinder and the slower follow up shots was an eye opener for me. I practice the same drill with my Marlin 45-70.

Limited experience my arse !!!! Whew ! 4 shots with a Casull ? OMG!

Happy poppa keeled over quickly.


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[Kevin Dill]

The .460 Rowland appeals to me.

 

[jmden]

Guys are handloading DoubleTap 200g hardcast (DoubleTap's 200g hardcast bullet (gas checked) specifically because it is made fot the 10mm auto--can actually tapercrimp /a bit of roll crimp into cannelure for that purpose in this bullet while maintaining the headspacing off the casemouth.) bullets up to and over 1400 fps with 6" barrels like the Glock G40. With the extra mass of the long slide, the G40 seesm to absorb that recoil very well. That's at or near 900 ft. lbs. of energy without mods or muzzle brake on a Glock G40, although some guys are putting in KKM barrels and the like because of Glocks rifling supposedly building up lead with the polygonal rifling (Polygonal Rifling in Glocks: Why It Matters!). Pretty hard to beat with 16 rounds in the pistol.

I stagger 200g DT hardcast with 200g Hornady XTPs doing the same velocity through a KKM barrel. (Clocking in at an average of about 1375fps+) If I have to deal with a wolf pack, I want some expanding bullets in there too. An Inforce APLc (2 oz.) light and Ameriglo night sites rounds out the package.