What does it take to kill a grizzly?

[gbflyer]

Alaska Master Guide Phil Shoemaker I’m guessing has witnessed more Brown/ Grizzly kills than anyone on the planet. He sides with Alaska F&G recommendation to use a 30-06. The smallest cartridge any of his clients has used was a .270 Win shooting Partitions, 2 shots in the lungs bear died quick. He did state to hunt with whatever gun you shoot the best so if a client showed up with a .243 shooting Partitions or any deep penetrating bullet he would have no problem. The bear he killed with a 9mm handgun was in self defense of his fishing clients on a river he fished for 30 years with no issues. For a self defense bear handgun he recommended something smaller you can shoot fast and accurate. I’ve never hunted bear in Alaska just find his advice interesting and wanted to pass it on. Phil does carry a 458 Win as his bear guide backup.

Guides don’t seem to get a lot of love on this subject apparently.

 

[Bluefish]

Alaska Master Guide Phil Shoemaker I’m guessing has witnessed more Brown/ Grizzly kills than anyone on the planet. He sides with Alaska F&G recommendation to use a 30-06. The smallest cartridge any of his clients has used was a .270 Win shooting Partitions, 2 shots in the lungs bear died quick. He did state to hunt with whatever gun you shoot the best so if a client showed up with a .243 shooting Partitions or any deep penetrating bullet he would have no problem. The bear he killed with a 9mm handgun was in self defense of his fishing clients on a river he fished for 30 years with no issues. For a self defense bear handgun he recommended something smaller you can shoot fast and accurate. I’ve never hunted bear in Alaska just find his advice interesting and wanted to pass it on. Phil does carry a 458 Win as his bear guide backup.

This doesn’t address the hypothesis of using a heavy for caliber match bullet in smaller calibers. If the smallest cartridge used is a 270 win, Phil has never tried a 77g tmk in 223. How can he offer any input on if it works or doesn’t work?

 

[WW2 Buff]

This doesn’t address the hypothesis of using a heavy for caliber match bullet in smaller calibers. If the smallest cartridge used is a 270 win, Phil has never tried a 77g tmk in 223. How can he offer any input on if it works or doesn’t work?

Using a 223

This doesn’t address the hypothesis of using a heavy for caliber match bullet in smaller calibers. If the smallest cartridge used is a 270 win, Phil has never tried a 77g tmk in 223. How can he offer any input on if it works or doesn’t work?

Im just relaying his experience not sure why .223 has to come up? He did mention locals use it.

 

[wind gypsy]

So the better question is if a large bear was charging toward you-- and obviously there might be some problem with shot placement, what is the minimum caliber you would want to bet your life and maybe a family members life that is with you on?

I wouldn't go on a guided brown bear hunt with a 223 but I'd be hard pressed to argue a 30-06 or larger bolt gun would be better than an AR and a mag full of 77 TMKs in the "if a bear was charging" scenario.

Charging bear/timed shooting drill

AR15 with Aimpoint: Average 1st shot- 0.64 seconds Average split between shots= 0.16 seconds Average total time- 0.81 seconds Bolt action 308 with Aimpoint: Average 1st shot- 0.82 seconds Average split- 1.14 seconds Average total time- 1.96 seconds AR15 all hits, no malfunctions...

rokslide.com

 

[AkRyan]

Does that change what a bullet does in tissue?




What does fat due to the wound channel?





What does hibernating or not have to do with why a bear if big?

I'm not sure how to answer this without being a smart ass. If bullet used opens in the first 3in after inpact and the bear has more fat that will definitely effect the bullets ability to do its job, Will a bullet go through 3in of anything easier that going through 6in??
When hibernation is happening they aren't eating(this is how they grow!) Lower 48 bears can eat longer and hibernate less(grow longer). I hope this helps a little bit.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

but I'd be hard pressed to argue a 30-06 or larger bolt gun would be better than an AR and a mag full of 77 TMKs in the "if a bear was charging" scenario.

Charging bear/timed shooting drill

AR15 with Aimpoint: Average 1st shot- 0.64 seconds Average split between shots= 0.16 seconds Average total time- 0.81 seconds Bolt action 308 with Aimpoint: Average 1st shot- 0.82 seconds Average split- 1.14 seconds Average total time- 1.96 seconds AR15 all hits, no malfunctions...

rokslide.com

When I was talking with a couple buddies and some natives before I headed up for AK Moose earlier this month, they described exactly what @wind gypsy is mentioning here. They said anyone in their immediate hunting/guiding groups carry AR's now and nothing else. They recommended I bring an AR for the moose hunt and said it's their preferred gun for bear and seal subsistence hunts as well.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm not sure how to answer this without being a smart ass. If bullet used opens in the first 3in after inpact and the bear has more fat that will definitely effect the bullets ability to do its job,

Ok, how so? What does that mean?


You posted this-

“ You do realize they put on massive layers of fat all year right? I also think people need to specify if they are shooting alaskan/Canadian bears or lower 48 bears. There is a difference. And yes I know the bear get big down there but that's because they don't have to hibernate.”

I asked questions trying to figure out what you meant, or were getting at? Because your post reads as if it is saying- AK bears are bigger/harder to penetrate and that people need to specify, then saying lower 48 bears get huge- but it’s doesn’t matter because it’s only from not hibernating. ?


What is the point you were/are trying to make?

Will a bullet go through 3in of anything easier that going through 6in??

You said it- you tell us how 3” of fat will affect bullet penetration and upset.

 

[AkRyan]

Ok, how so? What does that mean?


You posted this-



I asked questions trying to figure out what you meant, or were getting at? Because your post reads as if it is saying- AK bears are bigger/harder to penetrate and that people need to specify, then saying lower 48 bears get huge- but it’s doesn’t matter because it’s only from not hibernating. ?


What is the point you were/are trying to make?




You said it- you tell us how 3” of fat will affect bullet penetration and upset.

I see the confusion. Alaska and Canadian (not all) bears have to put on reserve fat to feed off while hibernating. Southern bears that do not hibernate do not need this added fat to survive. My reference to bears getting big was to stop anyone from starting a mine is bigger fight. I hope this clears things up.

Thicker target will effect bullet performance on specific target.

 

[AkRyan]

When I was talking with a couple buddies and some natives before I headed up for AK Moose earlier this month, they described exactly what @wind gypsy is mentioning here. They said anyone in their immediate hunting/guiding groups carry AR's now and nothing else. They recommended I bring an AR for the moose hunt and said it's their preferred gun for bear and seal subsistence hunts as well.

30 rounds with extra mags is a wonderful thing for sure!

 

[atmat]

I see the confusion. Alaska and Canadian (not all) bears have to put on reserve fat to feed off while hibernating. Southern bears that do not hibernate do not need this added fat to survive. My reference to bears getting big was to stop anyone from starting a mine is bigger fight. I hope this clears things up.

Thicker target will effect bullet performance on specific target.

I may be wrong; I’m far from a ballistics expert and have never hunted grizz/brown.

But I thought fat had virtually no effect on bullet performance, as it’s neither dense nor hard to cut through.

 

[Formidilosus]

I see the confusion. Alaska and Canadian (not all) bears have to put on reserve fat to feed off while hibernating. Southern bears that do not hibernate do not need this added fat to survive. My reference to bears getting big was to stop anyone from starting a mine is bigger fight. I hope this clears things up.

Thicker target will effect bullet performance on specific target.

Thank you, I understand now.

 

[Luke S]

I get most of my bears in the spring so fat is less of an issue. Fall black bears have fat but not where it would affect bullet performance. I have seen but not skinned so really fat brown bears immediately before hibernation starts. Maybe just maybe that would affect performance. How much fat can a fall brown bear have over the ribs and chest area?

Back to the original question
1. What does it take for a bullet to get into the vitals of the biggest bear you are likely to meet? I think we'd want the ability to smash a shoulder and get at least one lung, ideally both. That would probably mean an exit wound if you don't hit a shoulder bone. So far a 6.5 Grendal is the smallest I've used but it works on 6 ft black bears just fine. Exits on everything that is not a shoulder bone hit.

2. A wide enough hole to matter. I suppose a .22 Long Rifle could penetrate enough but I suspect the hole would be unimpressive. That 6.5 Grendal made a nice wide hole. Based on others reports a .223 would seem fine too.

3. Is there any evidence that a bigger bullet does better after we achieve the minimum of penetrated lung+adequately wide hole? Based on my sample of about 20 bear kills observed I'd say no. I do like exit holes. I might part ways a bit with Form there. I might choose something slightly bigger than a .223 and trade shootabilty for a higher chance of an exit. I don't think it kills the bear faster but it does make them easier to track. But I'm not talking a 375 Mag. More like a 6.5 Grendal to my .308 on the higher end.

 

[AkRyan]

I've never seen a bear go farther than 3 steps when shot with a 375ruger...tracks a few shot with 30 cal and 7mm.

 

[Formidilosus]

I've never seen a bear go farther than 3 steps when shot with a 375ruger...tracks a few shot with 30 cal and 7mm.

There are countless videos on YouTube of bears taking 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 rounds of 338’s and 375’s.

 

[AkRyan]

There are countless videos on YouTube of bears taking 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 rounds of 338’s and 375’s.

But I've never experienced this! Do you see the point? We can literally all do this for 5yrs straight and still not get a general consensus.

 

[atmat]

But I've never experienced this! Do you see the point? We can literally all do this for 5yrs straight and still not get a general consensus.

Which is why we refer to wound channel physical characteristics — which can/are tested through standard media — and not anecdotes.

But the anti-223 guys go, “Well thats just lab stuff, you’d never kill a grizz with one in real life.”

 

[AkRyan]

Which is why we refer to wound channel physical characteristics — which can/are tested through standard media — and not anecdotes.

But the anti-223 guys go, “Well thats just lab stuff, you’d never kill a grizz with one in real life.”

We will be putting this to test next season with in depth data from the field. 223, 6.5, 7,30 will all be tested with applicable bullets.

 

[RMM]

We will be putting this to test next season with in depth data from the field. 223, 6.5, 7,30 will all be tested with applicable bullets.

What do you consider an applicable bullet? Match bullets I'd hope. Will you be videoing it?

 

[AkRyan]

What do you consider an applicable bullet? Match bullets I'd hope. Will you be videoing it?

Why match bullets? See we already have a issue! Do i need match bullets in my 375?

 

[RMM]

Why match bullets? See we already have a issue! Do i need match bullets in my 375?

Because the entire point of the small caliber shift is "bullets matter more than headstamps".