Barrel break in, does it matter?

[Stu]

I for one appreciate both Form's and Frank's contributions to this subject. I also appreciate Form sharing his methods, materials and results. At least I have a way to assess the validity of what he shares.

That being said, I would really like to see the performance of the test barrels that the ammo makers use leading up to and immediately after cleaning. Are those barreled actions attached directly to some type of static mount, or are they shoulder fired?

 

[ETtikka]

So here is the real question in my mind, for those of us who are concerned with proper preventative maintenance, cold bore accuracy (hunting), and resell value,,, does a proper break in matter?, will a borescope show a degredation/pitting, etc overtime with no cleaning?

While Form's vast resources of time, space, money, and unlimited ammo lead to some great real life data and really show which products are superior (like SWFA for example), the rest of us are dirt poor relatively speaking and are forced to using much smaller sample sizes.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm not sure honestly. I cleaned it to restore where it was.

10 round group as fast as I can breathe and accurately fire. 5 to 8 - 10 round groups something like that. Different days. Enough I was damn sick of shooting groups.

That’s pretty good. What’s the scope?

What I would do with it were it my gun, shoot five, five shot groups in the same target allowing it cool between groups at 100 yards. All rounds count. Measure the group. Do the same at 500, but looking more for vertical spread than horizontal. Compare. Then just shoot the piss out of it. When it opens to 2 moa, just keep shooting. If by 400-500 rounds the group sizes are worse than the 20 round initial group, clean it. Well, actually I’d get a new barrel because I’m not dealing with that.

 

[KClark]

That’s pretty good. What’s the scope?

What I would do with it were it my gun, shoot five, five shot groups in the same target allowing it cool between groups at 100 yards. All rounds count. Measure the group. Do the same at 500, but looking more for vertical spread than horizontal. Compare. Then just shoot the piss out of it. When it opens to 2 moa, just keep shooting. If by 400-500 rounds the group sizes are worse than the 20 round initial group, clean it. Well, actually I’d get a new barrel because I’m not dealing with that.

Much to much common sense and actual shooting with observation in that statement. You will ruin all the wives tales and dispel all the "because that's how we always do it" retoric. Change is never good, you should know that. It's not like barrel making methods and ammo has changed any in the last 70 years. Jeesh.

Heavy sarcasm "OFF".

 

[ETtikka]

That’s pretty good. What’s the scope?

What I would do with it were it my gun, shoot five, five shot groups in the same target allowing it cool between groups at 100 yards. All rounds count. Measure the group. Do the same at 500, but looking more for vertical spread than horizontal. Compare. Then just shoot the piss out of it. When it opens to 2 moa, just keep shooting. If by 400-500 rounds the group sizes are worse than the 20 round initial group, clean it. Well, actually I’d get a new barrel because I’m not dealing with that.

I hate to state the obvious, but the cost of 500 rounds comes into play for myself, i can't speak for others.

Wow, not all of us have unlimited free ammo.

 

[Formidilosus]

I hate to state the obvious, but the cost of 500 rounds comes into play for myself, i can't speak for others.

Wow, not all of us have unlimited free ammo.

I didn’t say to do it in one session, or one year. If someone can not afford to shoot 500 rounds, then the barrel life play of break in wouldn’t seem to matter all that much. But you are correct in that. I don’t waste time on picky, finicky rifles anymore. I don’t even do load work up. If the specific combination I choose doesn’t shoot acceptably, with maybe powder increase for velocity, I’m not playing with seating depth, tenth grain variations in powder or any other time waster, I simply change powder or bullets. If it doesn’t shoot the second combo, the barrel goes in the trash. Interestingly I haven’t had to pull a barrel off for not shooting in a very long time.

I’ve paid for hundred of thousand of rounds. People will shell out money for semi customs, new stocks, carbon wrapped barrels, expensive and wildcat cartridges, endless load development, $1k-$2k scopes, etc, etc, etc. Yet when it comes to the only thing that is guaranteed to help them be successful- actually shooting, they balk. There’s a reason that I suggest a $600 Tikka in 223 and 6.5CM, with reliable $300 scopes so much. The carbon barreled, $1k scopes, magnum does literally nothing for someone in normal medium ranges over the above combo, yet depletes the ammo budget while doing so. Buy a rifle/scope/cartridge combo that is known to work reliably, with minimum fuss and focus on the shooting.

 

[Reburn]

That’s pretty good. What’s the scope?

What I would do with it were it my gun, shoot five, five shot groups in the same target allowing it cool between groups at 100 yards. All rounds count. Measure the group. Do the same at 500, but looking more for vertical spread than horizontal. Compare. Then just shoot the piss out of it. When it opens to 2 moa, just keep shooting. If by 400-500 rounds the group sizes are worse than the 20 round initial group, clean it. Well, actually I’d get a new barrel because I’m not dealing with that.

Nightforce NXS 2.5-10 mil-r or mil-c I can remember.

Roger.

 

[Formidilosus]

Nightforce NXS 2.5-10 mil-r or mil-c I can remember.

Roger.

That’s probably not an issue. I mean since you don’t mind, the certainly an answer is to just clean it when I needs it.

 

[Totoro]

I don't prescribe to any specific break in procedure.

I ask the barrel maker and follow their guidelines; thus, IF there is a quality concern and the question is raised if the specific listed break in procedure was followed, then I've done my own due diligence.

That said, my recent X-Caliber barrel purchase, I followed the recommended break in procedure and out of curiousity I chrono'd the break in factory ammo before and after break in. On average a 55fps increase and I was surprise. But no means end all cure all, just one data point for myself.

 

[Stefan]

From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 700 break in
Date: 8 Aug 1997 00:01:07 -0400

Arthur Sprague wrote:

# On 29 Jul 1997 22:50:26 -0400, [email protected] (John W. Engel)
# wrote:
#
# #This is how (some) benchrester break in barrels, and it does work.
# #The mechanism is that the bore has pores in it (microns in size).
# #If you simply shoot a box or two through it without cleaning, the
# #pores fill up with gilding metal, and stay that way. If you
# #follow the above procedure (and they mean *clean* between shots!),
# #the pores are "smoothed over" with each successive shot. A barrel
# #correctly broken in is MUCH easier to clean than one that is
# #not. If it is a good quality tube, it will also be more accurate.
# #Regards,
# #whit
#
# Well, the range hours here are quite limited. On my first trip I
# managed to fire a whole fourteen rounds, with a thorough cleaning
# after each round. It couldn't hurt! Fun gun! Difficult to think of
# .223 as a battle round after experience with .30-06 and .45ACP, but it
# surely going to be a pleasure to shoot.
# Thanks to all for their advice.

This is total hogwash! It all got started when a barrel maker that I
know started putting break in instructions in the box with each barrel
he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help
and his reply was If they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel
that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just
figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point it
defiantly will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a
fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset bench rest world
records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at
one time) along with HighPower,Silloett,smallbore national and world
records and my instructions were to clean as often as posable preferably
every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel
before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I
see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from
normal wear and tear.I am even reading about people recommending
breaking in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the
guns.
Gale Mc.

Barrel break-in (Gale McMillan)

 

[Stefan]

I run a couple of patches down the bore of my rifle when I first get it to ensure that nothing fell in or was left behind from the machining process. Then I shoot until my groups start to degrade, then I clean, rinse and repeat.

 

[HighUintas]

I didn’t say to do it in one session, or one year. If someone can not afford to shoot 500 rounds, then the barrel life play of break in wouldn’t seem to matter all that much. But you are correct in that. I don’t waste time on picky, finicky rifles anymore. I don’t even do load work up. If the specific combination I choose doesn’t shoot acceptably, with maybe powder increase for velocity, I’m not playing with seating depth, tenth grain variations in powder or any other time waster, I simply change powder or bullets. If it doesn’t shoot the second combo, the barrel goes in the trash. Interestingly I haven’t had to pull a barrel off for not shooting in a very long time.

I’ve paid for hundred of thousand of rounds. People will shell out money for semi customs, new stocks, carbon wrapped barrels, expensive and wildcat cartridges, endless load development, $1k-$2k scopes, etc, etc, etc. Yet when it comes to the only thing that is guaranteed to help them be successful- actually shooting, they balk. There’s a reason that I suggest a $600 Tikka in 223 and 6.5CM, with reliable $300 scopes so much. The carbon barreled, $1k scopes, magnum does literally nothing for someone in normal medium ranges over the above combo, yet depletes the ammo budget while doing so. Buy a rifle/scope/cartridge combo that is known to work reliably, with minimum fuss and focus on the shooting.

I like your take on load "development".

So if you don't spend time on the picky details of handloading, do you use high quality brass to remove variability in neck thickness and case volume? What types of things do you find make the most impact aside from bullet and powder selection?

 

[Formidilosus]

So if you don't spend time on the picky details of handloading, do you use high quality brass to remove variability in neck thickness and case volume?

Sometimes, mostly just load and go. I lose brass a bunch so I don’t spend much time screwing with it. i have had no issues getting win/fed/Hornady/etc brass to shoot. If necks a dented, I’ll resize but that about it.

What types of things do you find make the most impact aside from bullet and powder selection?

The barrel. I don’t mean to be flippant, but seriously. To start with, other than specialty shooting of which animals to 600-800 yards isn’t, minor decreases in group size do not have much effect on hitting, whereas relatively small errors in your zero for instance, do. So for a general hunting rifle from 0-600 I’m looking for 1-1.5 moa for consistent grouos- for me that ten rounds or more. At that level, if I miss it won’t be due to precision. For past 600 consistently I’m looking for 1.1-1.2 moa on demand. Again, that level of mechanical precision is enough that any time spent getting smaller groups is better spent on other things.

I actually haven’t had to play with anything in a long time. Since I started shooting rifles with good barrels, scopes that have a extremely low failure rate, higher round count groups so I‘m not chasing randomness, not cleaning, and using good components, I haven’t had a rifle that didn’t shoot the bullet and powder I wanted to.
If I go back, the last 7-8 6.5 CM’s have all shot the bullets I wanted very well with only changing charge weights to get the velocity needed. 308’s are just easy with anything, 300WM and Norma are easy, 338NM and Lapua the same, 6mms are easy, etc. Actually the only load I’ve had to play with was for the 223 and 77gr TMK combo when they were new. But wasn’t precision that was the cause but velocity. Once we found the load however it shoots in every single 223 we have tried. I have a 6XC coming. Using a powder I haven’t tried, I bet it still takes 20 rounds to get precision and velocity I expect.

If I had to do the 93 reloading trick moves to get precision…. I’d just shoot federal GMM 308 for everything.

 

[woods89]

Sometimes, mostly just load and go. I lose brass a bunch so I don’t spend much time screwing with it. i have had no issues getting win/fed/Hornady/etc brass to shoot. If necks a dented, I’ll resize but that about it.



The barrel. I don’t mean to be flippant, but seriously. To start with, other than specialty shooting of which animals to 600-800 yards isn’t, minor decreases in group size do not have much effect on hitting, whereas relatively small errors in your zero for instance, do. So for a general hunting rifle from 0-600 I’m looking for 1-1.5 moa for consistent grouos- for me that ten rounds or more. At that level, if I miss it won’t be due to precision. For past 600 consistently I’m looking for 1.1-1.2 moa on demand. Again, that level of mechanical precision is enough that any time spent getting smaller groups is better spent on other things.

I actually haven’t had to play with anything in a long time. Since I started shooting rifles with good barrels, scopes that have a extremely low failure rate, higher round count groups so I‘m not chasing randomness, not cleaning, and using good components, I haven’t had a rifle that didn’t shoot the bullet and powder I wanted to.
If I go back, the last 7-8 6.5 CM’s have all shot the bullets I wanted very well with only changing charge weights to get the velocity needed. 308’s are just easy with anything, 300WM and Norma are easy, 338NM and Lapua the same, 6mms are easy, etc. Actually the only load I’ve had to play with was for the 223 and 77gr TMK combo when they were new. But wasn’t precision that was the cause but velocity. Once we found the load however it shoots in every single 223 we have tried. I have a 6XC coming. Using a powder I haven’t tried, I bet it still takes 20 rounds to get precision and velocity I expect.

If I had to do the 93 reloading trick moves to get precision…. I’d just shoot federal GMM 308 for everything.

This is in sporter weight barrels, correct?

I've seen some pretty convincing arguments that "nodes" that people find in their load workup are usually not repeatable, and thus you should do as you say and pick a velocity and go. The counterargument I've heard is that this works in heavy barrels but not in lightweight barrels. I personally also usually pick a charge weight, and more often than not it works just fine. But I'm not chasing ''1/4 minute all day long'', either.

I will say handloading has gotten much simpler after adopting the 10 shot 1-1.5 MOA standard, switching to a Nightforce, and having my hunting rifle rebarreled with a Hawk Hill.

 

[Formidilosus]

This is in sporter weight barrels, correct?

Yep.

I've seen some pretty convincing arguments that "nodes" that people find in their load workup are usually not repeatable, and thus you should do as you say and pick a velocity and go. The counterargument I've heard is that this works in heavy barrels but not in lightweight barrels.

Morgan Lamprecht talked about it on the hide a while back. a bit of critical thinking would say that OCW, etc is off. If three shots wont show you how well a rifle shoots, how is one? The reason those techniques work, is because they rifle was going to shoot anyways. Now having said that, finding the node, if done correctly with large sample sizes will work.

 

[woods89]

Yep.



Morgan Lamprecht talked about it on the hide a while back. a bit of critical thinking would say that OCW, etc is off. If three shots wont show you how well a rifle shoots, how is one? The reason those techniques work, is because they rifle was going to shoot anyways. Now having said that, finding the node, if done correctly with large sample sizes will work.

Makes sense. Thanks!

 

[HighUintas]

Sometimes, mostly just load and go. I lose brass a bunch so I don’t spend much time screwing with it. i have had no issues getting win/fed/Hornady/etc brass to shoot. If necks a dented, I’ll resize but that about it.



The barrel. I don’t mean to be flippant, but seriously. To start with, other than specialty shooting of which animals to 600-800 yards isn’t, minor decreases in group size do not have much effect on hitting, whereas relatively small errors in your zero for instance, do. So for a general hunting rifle from 0-600 I’m looking for 1-1.5 moa for consistent grouos- for me that ten rounds or more. At that level, if I miss it won’t be due to precision. For past 600 consistently I’m looking for 1.1-1.2 moa on demand. Again, that level of mechanical precision is enough that any time spent getting smaller groups is better spent on other things.

I actually haven’t had to play with anything in a long time. Since I started shooting rifles with good barrels, scopes that have a extremely low failure rate, higher round count groups so I‘m not chasing randomness, not cleaning, and using good components, I haven’t had a rifle that didn’t shoot the bullet and powder I wanted to.
If I go back, the last 7-8 6.5 CM’s have all shot the bullets I wanted very well with only changing charge weights to get the velocity needed. 308’s are just easy with anything, 300WM and Norma are easy, 338NM and Lapua the same, 6mms are easy, etc. Actually the only load I’ve had to play with was for the 223 and 77gr TMK combo when they were new. But wasn’t precision that was the cause but velocity. Once we found the load however it shoots in every single 223 we have tried. I have a 6XC coming. Using a powder I haven’t tried, I bet it still takes 20 rounds to get precision and velocity I expect.

If I had to do the 93 reloading trick moves to get precision…. I’d just shoot federal GMM 308 for everything.

Are you just picking a velocity you want your projectile to be at and adjusting powder for that, and that's it?

That's so simple, you've almost got me convinced to quit cleaning my gun again and then pay absolutely no attention to the details on my loads. Man that would free up a lot of time to shoot more.

 

[Formidilosus]

Are you just picking a velocity you want your projectile to be at and adjusting powder for that, and that's it?

Yes. Then I make sure it shoots at 100 and 300 yards acceptably and load in bulk. I’m not saying I am a master reloader, I’m not, I’m a caveman reloader. I’m saying that is what I do, and I have zero issues getting 1 moa or less ten round groups at 300 yards out of the LR/comp rifles doing so. I’m not interested in finicky loads just like I’m not interested in finicky rifles. If .020 off land shoots great, but .025 doesn’t- am I going to constantly muck with seating depth to keep it in tune? I’d rather watch paint dry. Same for charge weight, if 42.2gr shoots like crap, but 42.5 is great- what happens when it gets colder (or hotter) and the MV drops?
I can take the 223/TMK load with 8208, and load rounds anywhere from 22.5-24gr at AR mag length, in a winchester, federal, or LC cases, most any SR primer, put it in any one of the half dozen 223 bolt guns here, and be sub 1.3-1.4 Moa for ten with any of those combinations, and not be more than .2mil off zero. The last load I did for 6.5 CM with 130gr TMK and RL16. Went max charge weight, and loaded at SAMMI and one at max mag length. They shot the same. That load has shot less the 1.2 moa for ten in four 6.5 CM rifles. Maybe I don’t shoot picky cartridges and rifles.

 

[HighUintas]

Yes. Then I make sure it shoots at 100 and 300 yards acceptably and load in bulk. I’m not saying I am a master reloader, I’m not, I’m a caveman reloader. I’m saying that is what I do, and I have zero issues getting 1 moa or less ten round groups at 300 yards out of the LR/comp rifles doing so. I’m not interested in finicky loads just like I’m not interested in finicky rifles. If .020 off land shoots great, but .025 doesn’t- am I going to constantly muck with seating depth to keep it in tune? I’d rather watch paint dry. Same for charge weight, if 42.2gr shoots like crap, but 42.5 is great- what happens when it gets colder (or hotter) and the MV drops?
I can take the 223/TMK load with 8208, and load rounds anywhere from 22.5-24gr at AR mag length, in a winchester, federal, or LC cases, most any SR primer, put it in any one of the half dozen 223 bolt guns here, and be sub 1.3-1.4 Moa for ten with any of those combinations, and not be more than .2mil off zero. The last load I did for 6.5 CM with 130gr TMK and RL16. Went max charge weight, and loaded at SAMMI and one at max mag length. They shot the same. That load has shot less the 1.2 moa for ten in four 6.5 CM rifles. Maybe I don’t shoot picky cartridges and rifles.

Do you do much testing and trial/error to achieve that with a new bullet and rifle?

I'm currently shooting a 30-284 and pretty new to it. I'd think it'd be an easy one, but it's not. I think it's likely the barrel and chamber job though. My Tikka SL '06 barrel was easier

 

[Formidilosus]

Do you do much testing and trial/error to achieve that with a new bullet and rifle?

I'm currently shooting a 30-284 and pretty new to it. I'd think it'd be an easy one, but it's not. I think it's likely the barrel and chamber job though. My Tikka SL '06 barrel was easier

Nope. Haven’t messed with a 30-284, but known loads are out there for most cartridges. In general I also don’t shoot odd stuff anymore. It’s been my experience that either a powder and bullet combo will shoot well near max or at max or it won’t, and screwing around to get it to shoot just means you have a finicky combo. I would change powder or bullets In that case.