Barrel break in, does it matter?

[Formidilosus]

Thanks for quantifying barrel life from cleaning all the time to never cleaning, it helps to wade through the different opinions on what to do.

Don’t wade through opinions. Take one good rifle with a scope that won’t loose zero or fail, good mounts, and that you will shoot a lot and just stop cleaning it. Start off by shooting three ten round groups on one target for a baseline. Then just shoot it. Every once and a while, shoot a ten shot group. If in the end it’s all bs and the barrel gets shot out before it should have, well you learned something. If however it doesn’t as Stu has found out, well…. Maybe you learn all the settled science, isn’t.

People spend way too much time agonizing over a piece of $400 metal that is disposable anyways. Even at the shortest barrel life, in my case almost dead nuts on 400 rounds- one was a DPMS 243WSSM that was just absolute junk steel, and one was a 243win with either a Bartlein or Brux (that seems to have had something wrong with it as well as I bought two identical ones at the same time, and the second barrel lasted normally), the cost in ammo and fuel alone way outstrip the price of the barrel.

 

[Formidilosus]

Are you saying your barrel magically groups the same even if the copper and carbon buildup has reduced the bore diameter by a thousandth or two?

I don’t think there is anything magical about it. How do you know it reduces it by a thousandth or two? That’s a serious question as I’ve never cared to measure it. In any case, there is no noticeable group size difference from around 200’ish rounds to the end of the barrels life. Both the 308’s shown were on demand between .9 and 1.1 moa for ten rounds when brand new, and are still shooting that. The one on the KRG targets is literally every group that rifle has fired in the last couple of months, there’s no cherry picking

You've mentioned some sort of fouling equilibrium before, where after a period of not cleaning poi and/or group size stabilizes.

Yes, little oddities tend to go away.

Well if you've got a solid copper layer in your barrel of X composition and then switch to another bullet of Y copper jacket composition, you're telling me that's not going to cause an emotional upset of your barrel and it's fouling equilibrium?

No, I do not experience anything other than a POI shift when switching bullets.

You have a powder that doesn't create much carbon fouling, I assume?

The powder is whatever is loaded in them. I don’t shoot all that much hand loaded ammo- few thousand rounds a year on average. Of the ones I do, the powder is what it is- 8208, Varget, H4350, H4831, IMR 4064, H1000, RL 16/23/26, etc, etc. The same thing everyone uses.

 

[Formidilosus]

Also what's you opinion/usage of Boresnakes?

The only time anything other than a projectile goes down a barrel is if I have been shooting a projectile that is not normal- I.E- NOT copper, steel, etc jacketed.

 

[HighUintas]

I don’t think there is anything magical about it. How do you know it reduces it by a thousandth or two? That’s a serious question as I’ve never cared to measure it. In any case, there is no noticeable group size difference from around 200’ish rounds to the end of the barrels life. Both the 308’s shown were on demand between .9 and 1.1 moa for ten rounds when brand new, and are still shooting that. The one on the KRG targets is literally every group that rifle has fired in the last couple of months, there’s no cherry picking

I believe it was Norma that did a paper on it and showed the bore diameter had decreased very significantly after a few hundred rounds. I can't remember exactly and I'm not sure it was Norma, but I think it was.


Have you ever done this with a true 1/4 or 1/2 moa gun?

 

[Wapiti1]

I believe it was Norma that did a paper on it and showed the bore diameter had decreased very significantly after a few hundred rounds. I can't remember exactly and I'm not sure it was Norma, but I think it was.


Have you ever done this with a true 1/4 or 1/2 moa gun?

Bore diameter changes a tiny amount, but it reaches an equilibrium. It's not like each bullet adds, and only adds to the residue in the barrel. The bullet scrubs some away, and adds some back along with the burning powder. Once that equilibrium is reached, you see the overall accuracy of the system in use (may or may not meet your accuracy needs). Cleaning creates a non-equilibrium state.

The question is if you are OK with ups and downs going in and out of equilibrium, or do you just want to stay there and know it will be consistent. A clean barrel is an aberration since it is not the condition of the barrel when we shoot.

The only time that I have seen constant buildup is in an extreme condition with flame cutting of the bullet, usually caused by a bullet diameter mismatch to the barrel. In this case, the gases melt the bullet and solder the droplets to the barrel (for lack of a better term). The instance I saw was a very oversize barrel from the factory and it coated copper near the chamber really badly. To the point of overpressure and blown primers.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeremy

 

[HighUintas]

Bore diameter changes a tiny amount, but it reaches an equilibrium. It's not like each bullet adds, and only adds to the residue in the barrel. The bullet scrubs some away, and adds some back along with the burning powder. Once that equilibrium is reached, you see the overall accuracy of the system in use (may or may not meet your accuracy needs). Cleaning creates a non-equilibrium state.

The question is if you are OK with ups and downs going in and out of equilibrium, or do you just want to stay there and know it will be consistent. A clean barrel is an aberration since it is not the condition of the barrel when we shoot.

The only time that I have seen constant buildup is in an extreme condition with flame cutting of the bullet, usually caused by a bullet diameter mismatch to the barrel. In this case, the gases melt the bullet and solder the droplets to the barrel (for lack of a better term). The instance I saw was a very oversize barrel from the factory and it coated copper near the chamber really badly. To the point of overpressure and blown primers.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeremy

I've got a barrel that adds layer on layer when shooting Speer and hornady bullets but it's from middle to muzzle and gets progressively worse towards muzzle. Looking at it with a borescope I can actually see the layers of copper. It looks like tiny mountains of copper on the lands. I've not taken it passed 40-50 rounds without cleaning. It was a real pain to clean

 

[Formidilosus]

Have you ever done this with a true 1/4 or 1/2 moa gun?

Define a true 1/4 or 1/2 moa gun”

 

[HighUintas]

Define a true 1/4 or 1/2 moa gun”

Exactly that. A gun that shoots either 1/4 moa or 1/2 moa cone with a large number of shots... 30+

 

[Formidilosus]

Exactly that. A gun that shoots either 1/4 moa or 1/2 moa cone with a large number of shots... 30+

Other than .22 RFs, nope. And outside of of true BR rifles, neither does anyone else.

 

[DangerRanger]

Other than .22 RFs, nope. And outside of of true BR rifles, neither does anyone else.

What is your profession?

 

[HighUintas]

I don't think BR shooters take their rifles to 2000 rounds without cleaning

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't think BR shooters take their rifles to 2000 rounds without cleaning

They don’t shoot 30 round groups either. Please explain how bench rest has any relevancy to practical field shooting, in this case- back country hunting?

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

I don't think BR shooters take their rifles to 2000 rounds without cleaning

Give up on it
Some people just think they're right regardless of very well documented facts

 

[Wapiti1]

I've got a barrel that adds layer on layer when shooting Speer and hornady bullets but it's from middle to muzzle and gets progressively worse towards muzzle. Looking at it with a borescope I can actually see the layers of copper. It looks like tiny mountains of copper on the lands. I've not taken it passed 40-50 rounds without cleaning. It was a real pain to clean

Have you ever slugged it? I'd suspect you have either a tapered bore, or a loose spot near the middle.

Either way, that is a barrel that I would remove from my herd. Why own a PITA.

The one I had trouble with was tapered from the chamber to the muzzle. It slugged .312" at the breech just past the throat, and .309" at the muzzle. It was a factory barrel from a time when that manufacturer had dodgy barrels. It now has a Douglas on it.

Jeremy

 

[Formidilosus]

Give up on it
Some people just think they're right regardless of very well documented facts

Again, how does bench rest have any practical use for field shooting? And how is cleaning a documented fact? To my knowledge there are no scientific, peer reviewed legitimate studies on barrel cleaning or break in. For every single barrel/rifle manufacturer that believes break in and cleaning is important, there is another legitimate barrel/rifle manufacturer that says it’s a waste of time, and a whole host of manufacturers in the middle who’s opinion is all over the map between those two points.
So as a critical thinker, when literally none of the supposed experts agree on the best way or process, how do you pick which is correct being that they’re almost all producing or have produced barrels that have won at their respective sports? Just personal favorite decided by charisma?

I have not stated that anyone should listen to me about cleaning as I am just some hunter on the internet. I am saying, that much like our current cultural issues right now, when the “experts” are all over the map and have contradictory statements or beliefs, and some or most seem to have clear personal biases, one might think it’s not so settled, and certainly does not reside in fact.

 

[Formidilosus]

The base position is this-

There is a ton of beliefs that the shooting community have that are nearly universal “truths”, that are so blatantly proven false with a modicum of experimentation- that ALL “settled knowledge” should be questioned.

Any one that can afford to shoot enough to wear out a barrel, can easily afford a barrel replacement to find out of if what he’s being fed is true or not.

 

[HighUintas]

Have you ever slugged it? I'd suspect you have either a tapered bore, or a loose spot near the middle.

Either way, that is a barrel that I would remove from my herd. Why own a PITA.

The one I had trouble with was tapered from the chamber to the muzzle. It slugged .312" at the breech just past the throat, and .309" at the muzzle. It was a factory barrel from a time when that manufacturer had dodgy barrels. It now has a Douglas on it.

Jeremy

No but I've been thinking about it. It's a mullerworks and I've heard nothing but good things about them. Sent an email nearly a month ago but haven't heard back. I'll probably slug it this fall at some point

 

[Reburn]

What is your profession?

How is this relevant?
What does what you get paid to do in your life translate into being bad or good at a hobby you love?
How does what you get paid to do make you an expert at it?

 

[DangerRanger]

How is this relevant?
What does what you get paid to do in your life translate into being bad or goo at a hobby you love?
How does what you get paid to do make you an expert at it?

Easy killer he can answer for himself or not he doesn’t need a guard dog.

That’s a high round count, I’m interested in how he shoots that much (50k+ rounds a year), he also is staunchly against the opinions and one might even venture to say positions of a member that literally makes test barrels and data logs them for the firearms industry. So yeah, I’d like to know what he does. I don’t know many just a hunters that can put down that round count yearly.

Don’t be the knight in the bar that stops a fight that never existed

 

[cod007]

Great discussion. Keep it going, please.