Are Berger failures real?

[Dioni A]

Now I’ve never experienced a fail myself using a variety of 7mm caliber (140/168 VLDS), or 30 cal Berger’s (210’s/215’s/230’s) and I’ve seen 25+ animals die with them over the last few years. A friend killed a buck in 2015 that penciled through the bucks heart at 400 yards. Shooting a 168 VLD out of a 30-06. Didn’t recover bullet but it had a wound channel like an FMJ. Got a pic last night of a 168VLD from a buddy in Alaska shooting a 7mm around 2950fps. Recovered this bullet from their mountain goat at 730 yards. Quartering to them.... obviously a bullet failure.

With that said, I always check bullet tips for debris/obstructions and will continue to use them for everything. They just work great and until I have first hand experience of poor bullet performance I can’t argue with the history I have. YMMV

Mike


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It was 570 and I did recover it and 2 others that season and had another that I believe was a failure but never recovered the animal to prove. That's 4 in a row and shattered my confidence in them.

 

[HellsCanyon]

It was 570 and I did recover it and 2 others that season and had another that I believe was a failure but never recovered the animal to prove. That's 4 in a row and shattered my confidence in them. View attachment 61923 View attachment 61924 View attachment 61925View attachment 61924

Pics not showing up least on tapatalk. But copy that I thought you never recovered the one on the buck, my mistake! On the yardage I didn’t know the 30-06 would shoot that far, my bad!

What did Berger say when you contacted them?

Mike


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[Dioni A]

Apologized and wouldn't tell me squat! Said they were going to do an investigation and requested I sent the box back. I did and asked multiple times to get the results of their testing and didn't get any follow up. Pics work now?

 

[HellsCanyon]

Apologized and wouldn't tell me squat! Said they were going to do an investigation and requested I sent the box back. I did and asked multiple times to get the results of their testing and didn't get any follow up. Pics work now?

Pics are good to go now!

That’s unfortunate to say the least on their response.... smh

Mike


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[Dioni A]

they did send me 4 boxes of bullets that I won't use!

 

[Broz]

I think I need to offer that I always use heavy for caliber bullets when using any cup core fragmenting bullet. That is not making excuses for the bullets above that didn't open properly. It is evident for whatever reason this combo is not suitable. But I will say if that 30-06 was mine and has a 1 in 10 twist barrel I would have the 215 Berger in it in the blink of an eye. We even ran them in 308's with 12 twists above 4000' and they took elk with authority.

312, would you do a little test for me please? Run a fine wire in the hollow point and measure how far it is back to lead. I have my own redneck theories on why some expansion rates are faster than others. With the 215 it is .400" back to lead, the 7mm / 195's closer to .300" I would really like to know if these 30 cal 168's have a shallow nose area.

Also do you know the impact velocity of the bullet pictured?

Thanks

 

[Dioni A]

Yes I do. I calculated all of that and saved it in the email dialogue I had with a berger employee. I'll try and dig it up. I can't stress enough how un biased I was in my evaluation of these bullets. I genuinely wanted them to work but I am grossly disappointed with my experience with them.

 

[Dioni A]

Hello my name is Dioni Amuchastegui and I decided to try your berger classic hunter 168 gn. In .308 this hunting season. I had heard many grat things about these bullets and when I first loaded them I was very impressed with the accuracy out of my rifle. Last weekend was opening of deer season in idaho and I had an opportunity at a very nice buck. It was a 133 yard broad side shot off a bipod. I had a witness on the shot and my placement was very good. This animal took off with little to no affect. I was completely dumb founded. I could not find any blood and was unable to retrieve the animal. The next day my hunting partner was able to shoot an animal and I put 2 extra shots in it. A was able to recover one bullet and examine both wounds. Neither bullet opened. I am curious if this is a defective lot of bullets or a velocity or loading problem. All impact velocities were around 2600 at ranges of impact. I would be happy to send the bullets back because I am terrified to shoot anything else with them.
Recovered bullet



4th consecutive failure summary
This is the bullet that entered in the front of the chest and recovered in the hind quarter. It was a straight head on shot at 570 yards with an impact velocity around 2000 fps.



The wound channel was very small. It's hard to say if it was bone fragment or the bullet that did the actual killing. But the buck died almost instantly. I didn't gut it but it's safe to assume from shot placement that the top of the heart and bottom of the lungs were taken out. The bullet definitely impacted bone on entrance and the tip of the bullet is still in tact.
I wish I could share their response but their legal document attached to the email expressly forbids it.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

Not a Berger fan here. I prefer bullets that retain weight in principle for hunting rather than high B.C. Doesn't mean they don't work, I just think there are better performing bullets out there, especially for my hunting style.

Agreed,.."Hunting" being, the KEY word, here ! Bonded bullets like, Sirocco's, Nosler AccuBonds, Hornady InterBonds, and of course, the "Old Standby",..the Partition ARE, the "Gold Standard",.. for "all Around" Hunting from, "Dark Timber" to 500- 700,.. Yards ! I'd LOVE to see, Sierra "BOND" their Game Kings ! And,..Hornady Bond their, ELD-X's !

 

[HuntHarder]

So many animals shot "very good" and not recovered. I'm still calling shennanigans. POP the lungs = dead animal Pencil hole or gaping wound channel.

 

[Ryan Avery]

So many animals shot "very good" and not recovered. I'm still calling shennanigans. POP the lungs = dead animal Pencil hole or gaping wound channel.

True!

And shooing big for caliber bullets is the Key IMO.

This 300 grain SMK hit a moose at 1775 yard and traveled 40 inches though the moose taking out the top of the heart. The moose never took a step.


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[HellsCanyon]

So many animals shot "very good" and not recovered. I'm still calling shennanigans. POP the lungs = dead animal Pencil hole or gaping wound channel.

Too many pictures of obvious bullet failures to argue they do happen as well....

I’m also of the belief that if I do make a poor shot, I’d rather it be with a berger than any other bullet. The wound channel they create is going to put an animal into a world of hurt no matter where you hit them and increases the chance of them bedding up or leaving a better blood trail.

Mike


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[Ryan Avery]

Too many pictures of obvious bullet failures to argue they do happen as well....

I’m also of the belief that if I do make a poor shot, I’d rather it be with a berger than any other bullet. The wound channel they create is going to put an animal into a world of hurt no matter where you hit them and increases the chance of them bedding up or leaving a better blood trail.

Mike


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I agree bullets can and do fail but IMO WAY more people make bad shots and blame the bullet.

I’m with you on the bergers and big bergers are even better.


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[HuntHarder]

Bullet failures DO happen, I just wish people would own up on a making a bad hit and not finding the animal. I hear too often when an animal is not recovered that it was a "great" or "perfect" shot and the bullet must not have opened, so the animal got away. Call it like it is, the shot was not perfect and the animal got away. I shot a Coues deer a few years ago about 3 inches too far back. The bullet went thru the liver and guts and the exit hole was the size of the bullet. Clearly the bullet did not expand. I attribute this to the shot being too far back and missing anything of substance to start the opening of the bullet. It literally penciled thru. The buck bedded up after 50 yards and I was able to make a PERFECT shot on him in his bed.

My point being, my first shot had plenty of velocity out of the 300 WSM, the range was not too far @ 585, I just miscalculated the wind and F'd up the shot.. Thankfully the buck bedded up promptly and gave me an opportunity at redemption.

 

[HellsCanyon]

Bullet failures DO happen, I just wish people would own up on a making a bad hit and not finding the animal. I hear too often when an animal is not recovered that it was a "great" or "perfect" shot and the bullet must not have opened, so the animal got away. Call it like it is, the shot was not perfect and the animal got away. I shot a Coues deer a few years ago about 3 inches too far back. The bullet went thru the liver and guts and the exit hole was the size of the bullet. Clearly the bullet did not expand. I attribute this to the shot being too far back and missing anything of substance to start the opening of the bullet. It literally penciled thru. The buck bedded up after 50 yards and I was able to make a PERFECT shot on him in his bed.

My point being, my first shot had plenty of velocity out of the 300 WSM, the range was not too far @ 585, I just miscalculated the wind and F'd up the shot.. Thankfully the buck bedded up promptly and gave me an opportunity at redemption.

I agree with that. Too many people blame the bullets for a bad shot and if you pencil through the heart it’s going to die. Not sure I agree with pencilling through lungs though, especially on elk. Them SOB’s are tough.... And not enough people have experience spotting LR shots to really tell where a bullet impacts. People have an idea in their head of what a bullets path looks like when in reality it often times is much more drastic and they’ll often call a high shot before the bullet drops into the target.

Mike


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[Ryan Avery]

I agree with that. Too many people blame the bullets for a bad shot and if you pencil through the heart it’s going to die. Not sure I agree with pencilling through lungs though, especially on elk. Them SOB’s are tough.... And not enough people have experience spotting LR shots to really tell where a bullet impacts. People have an idea in their head of what a bullets path looks like when in reality it often times is much more drastic and they’ll often call a high shot before the bullet drops into the target.

Mike


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Haha, even experienced spotters make bad calls, myself included.


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[HellsCanyon]

Haha, even experienced spotters make bad calls, myself included.


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You and me both!

Mike


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[Broz]

Haha, even experienced spotters make bad calls, myself included.


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Me too, it happens even after the heart is perforated too.
[video=youtube;YF-8ekA76e0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF-8ekA76e0[/video]

 

[Ryan Avery]

Me too, it happens even after the heart is perforated too.
[video=youtube;YF-8ekA76e0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF-8ekA76e0[/video]

Everyone of us thought that shot was high. Haha! Hell of a shot!!

 

[Broz]

Everyone of us thought that shot was high. Haha! Hell of a shot!!

Was one of the best hunts I have been on. When the trigger broke I knew it was dead bear. Then the reports came in it went high and I was then in doubt. Funny really listen to my voice. "Are you sure" Ba ha ha