Are Berger failures real?

[Ryan Avery]

This is an interesting thread.

When I use to shoot the old blue Barnes X bullets, I shot four whitetail bucks, and a bull elk in what I would consider are perfect broadside shots through the lungs. I found all of the deer within a hundred yards, but the bull went a long ways but bleed a fair amount. Each of these animals had pin holes in and out. None of the shots were over 400 yards.

The only issue I've had with bergers is with the tactical 230's. Shot a spike elk at 600 yards and it penciled in and out through both lungs. The bull didn't know what happened and it took a few steps into the brush and stood there for about two minutes before it fell over.


Its crazy to me to see all these posts with similar shots but very different outcomes. I think this is because of tiny but crucial details. Like the animal was alert before your shot or one guy hit a rib going in, and one guy didn't. Then add in that a bullet can fail and guys can make a bad shot that they believe to be good ones.


I will continue to shoot big for caliber bergers and shoot/practice as much as possible. It's been working for me.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Had the heart not been hit. Do you think it would have still been effective in killing that moose?

That’s a good question that I truly can't answer. It did, however, make me take a good long look at how far I am shooting and live critters.

 

[odin0226]

I'm still a berger fan, nothing else can touch it for LR hunting applications. BUT: I will opt for the 215 over the 230 given my experince with each.

I "think" its better for a couple reasons:
1. The void in the nose is larger on the 215 , which I feel aids in low velocity expansion.
2. The transition of retained velocity doesnt shift in favor of the 230 until beyod 1600 yards. So everything under 1600 you have more velocity to aide in expansion.

Now I agree the 230 has a little more KE across the board, and especially way out there- but KE isn't the problem.

If berger ever produces a new 30 cal EOL, things may change.

 

[luke moffat]

What I have learned from this thread is the I am darn glad grizzlies bears do not have the will to live that elk do. Moose by comparison are some of the easiest animals to kill IME. Huge target area of lungs and generally when shot just stand there a few moments and tip over.

 

[Broz]

What I have learned from this thread is the I am darn glad grizzlies bears do not have the will to live that elk do. Moose by comparison are some of the easiest animals to kill IME. Huge target area of lungs and generally when shot just stand there a few moments and tip over.

Well, I better come up and see about this moose deal. Just say when.

 

[ID_Matt]

This was my first year using bergers. First elk shot didn’t go farther than 20 yards, but i never found the bullet. pencil sized entrance hole and a decent sized exit hole at 500 yards with a .308. Last week my cousin used my gun to shoot a decent sized bull. Took a few follow up shots, even after a good hit to the lungs. After finding a bullet while skinning i am less than impressed. I really have no idea how the bullet ended like this. No damage to the tip and started to mushroom on the back?

Bullets in the background are hornady eld-x taken from 2 different elk last year. I guess i am pretty skeptical now. I understand that the bergers are supposed to fragment and dump all the energy in the cavity, but it doesn’t appear that either elk killed had this. First one had an exit hole making me think it penciled and the second didn’t expand at all.


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[Kotaman]

This was my first year using bergers. First elk shot didn’t go farther than 20 yards, but i never found the bullet. pencil sized entrance hole and a decent sized exit hole at 500 yards with a .308. Last week my cousin used my gun to shoot a decent sized bull. Took a few follow up shots, even after a good hit to the lungs. After finding a bullet while skinning i am less than impressed. I really have no idea how the bullet ended like this. No damage to the tip and started to mushroom on the back?

Bullets in the background are hornady eld-x taken from 2 different elk last year. I guess i am pretty skeptical now. I understand that the bergers are supposed to fragment and dump all the energy in the cavity, but it doesn’t appear that either elk killed had this. First one had an exit hole making me think it penciled and the second didn’t expand at all.


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Those ELD X's look great!

 

[Ryan Avery]

This was my first year using bergers. First elk shot didn’t go farther than 20 yards, but i never found the bullet. pencil sized entrance hole and a decent sized exit hole at 500 yards with a .308. Last week my cousin used my gun to shoot a decent sized bull. Took a few follow up shots, even after a good hit to the lungs. After finding a bullet while skinning i am less than impressed. I really have no idea how the bullet ended like this. No damage to the tip and started to mushroom on the back?

Bullets in the background are hornady eld-x taken from 2 different elk last year. I guess i am pretty skeptical now. I understand that the bergers are supposed to fragment and dump all the energy in the cavity, but it doesn’t appear that either elk killed had this. First one had an exit hole making me think it penciled and the second didn’t expand at all.


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How far were the shots with the ELD-X?

 

[elkduds]

Kinda looks like it tumbled and mushroomed while traveling bass-ackward.

 

[ID_Matt]

I believe one was around 320 and the other was 400


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[ID_Matt]

Kinda looks like it tumbled and mushroomed while traveling bass-ackward.

That's what I was thinking. I have no idea how it could do that without damaging the tip??

 

[Matt Cashell]

That's what I was thinking. I have no idea how it could do that without damaging the tip??

Looks like it hit something hard (like a rock) before tumbling and hitting the animal going on reverse.

Could have been deflected, destabilized or tumbling prior to hitting the hard object also.

I know some stories of tumbling Berger’s that turned out to be barrel twist issues in all likelihood.

Interesting recovered bullet.

 

[ID_Matt]

Looks like it hit something hard (like a rock) before tumbling and hitting the animal going on reverse.

Could have been deflected, destabilized or tumbling prior to hitting the hard object also.

I know some stories of tumbling Berger’s that turned out to be barrel twist issues in all likelihood.

Interesting recovered bullet.

I thought the same thing. But even if it hit something then I would think the tip would show more damage.. or even the sides. I am positive it didn't hit anything though. I can't figure it out. I don't think it is a twist/stabilization issue, but that is sort of what it looks like. Bullet should be plenty stable at only 500 yards. 308 win tikka, 168 gr bullet. 1/11 twist.

 

[Broz]

Pretty sure that bullet tumbled and then hit solid meat or bone backwards. Anytime the bullet has that banana bend it tumbled. Who knows if it tumbled before or after entering the elk, but it is not uncommon for a bullet to tumble after impact. Looks like it lost a good bit of weight, have you weighed it? from what I have seen tumbling bullets do plenty of damage, so the end results are usually dead game.

Jeff

 

[Matt Cashell]

It is possible that the 1 in 11 is too slow for that bullet at 500 yard velocities out of a 308.

Berger 168s are pretty long for their weight.

Just speculating of course.

 

[ID_Matt]

It is possible that the 1 in 11 is too slow for that bullet at 500 yard velocities out of a 308.

Berger 168s are pretty long for their weight.

Just speculating of course.

True. It was a Classic Hunter not a VLD so I would think it would be fine.

 

[Formidilosus]

That's what I was thinking. I have no idea how it could do that without damaging the tip??

It's not your twist rate- not even close.

Lots of bullets do it. Bullets want to travel base first and if they hit bone just the right way, they will tumble and fragment. It shows up with Berger more as they do not not start expanding immediately upon penetration therefore there is more oppertunity for it to happen. As Broz said- tumbling bullets cause a lot of damage.

 

[Broz]

Just got this in a text from a friend. US Senator Steve Daines.
Here are his own words.

" One shot behind the shoulder... 215gr Berger at work. Huge 2000 lb Bull. Dropped in his tracks. 100 yards."

Kind of put things in perspective I say about shot placement and heavy for caliber fragmenting bullets.

Jeff

 

[zrodwyo]

I've shot a lot of animals with Bergers and never had one fail. However, every once in a while I'll have a bullet that causes extreme meat damage and I'll find bits of bullet pretty far from the bullet's impact. Almost like a bird shot with a shotgun. I don't know if that's from hitting a rib or what. I shot a mule deer this year with my 6.5 SAUM perfectly behind the shoulder and I had stomach contents coming out of the exit hole and sandwiched between the hide and meat. I don't really know what happened there but for these reasons I'm moving towards using ELD-X bullets for my hunting rigs.


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[Jon Boy]

I don't know what the deal has been with the 168 classic hunters out of my 7 mag this year! I shot or watched 5 sitka blacktails shot with them, one cow elk and one mule deer buck this year. All had very similar results. The bullets seemed to just zip right through everything leaving a good sized exit and every animal traveled a long distance and almost all took follow up shots. I can understand the elk as it was a low hit the first shot. But the damn sitka bucks were traveling 100+ yards and taking 2 shots a piece. My mule deer took the first shot quartering to at 250, went in behind the shoulder and exited out the hind quarter Leaving a huge exit, hunched up and limped 50 yards closer, I smoked him nearly face on with a slight angle through the shoulder on shot #2, and the third one was complete broadside when he finally tipped over.
Now I know there's all this debate on here about 7mm as a long range elk cartridge, but a 168 grain bullet going 2950 should crumple any deer with those angles. I think Im to try the VLD or ELDM next to see how a little more of an explosive round does.