Are Berger failures real?

[Muledeerfanatic]

I haven't shot a ton of animals with them but they have worked great. Lots of damage and quick kills. From 60 to 500 yards I have had full penetration and they shoot great out of my guns.

 

[robby denning]

I didn't read the whole thread.

I've only killed two bucks with Bergers, both at 400+, one in a 7mm RM and other in 270 WSM. Second one I put a finishing round it at 70 yards, side entry, base of neck and the taxi just showed me the other day the cape had an entry and an exit on that close shot.

I really haven't shot them enough to say failures are rare but I can tell you they do the job and are very accurate. Using them again this year if that tells you anything.

 

[brushape]

I've been very happy with about 8 shots on animals now with 130vlds and 185 classic hunters on blacktail mule deer and wild pigs. One large boar had a thick shield that put a 185 to the test at 20 yards but for normal game I fully trust them. I will still do as the others have said and run a Barnes in the chamber for close shots with my 6.5 gap as the meat damage in close has been pretty bad


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[FURMAN]

I have shot plenty of animals from 50-700 yds. I would never consider any other bullet as my first choice on deer/antelope, especially for long range. When shot placement is correct they are one of the best. High shoulder shots are DRT and lung shots just destroy the internals. The only time I could see myself using a partition or solid would be for things like Cape buffalo.

 

[Broz]

I have shot or been there for literally 100's of big game animals taken with Bergers as I shot or watched. 70 plus elk last season and only 3 lost from bullets other than Bergers. I personally have taken game from an antelope at 60 yards with a 30-378 and a 210, to black bear at 1702 yards with a big 338 and a 300gr. Many elk from 800 t0 1200. Antelope to 1285 and several at 1000ish. Never lost an animal since we started using Bergers almost 10 years ago. Never seen an animal shot with a Berger leave the immediate area unless the shot placement was disgraceful. Even seen many with poor placement only walk a few steps and go down. The fail stories usually, not always, but usually, have a few key things in common. Light for caliber bullets, and high impact velocity. If your are hung up on velocity, and don't really need the high BC, use something else. I would never use any cup core design bullet in this instance. Now if you want the perfect storm, add small calibers , high velocity, 3 grove barrels that inscribe the jackets deep, a close shot, then put it right in the shoulder bone. This scenario inscribes the jacket so deep the bullet is ready to come apart in flight.

Here is what I credit our success with Berger to. Heavy for caliber bullets. 215 or 230's in a 30 cal. 180 or 195 in a 7mm. 300's in a .338. I also inspect each and every hunting round for be sure the tip is opened. If your seating die bottoms out on the tip, and closes the hole. its not the bullets fault. This also can happen if a bullet has spent too many firings in the bottom of a mag box in a magnum rifle. Then, there will be a few in each box that close up during manufacturing. Use these for practice or drill them out to the exact size that the others are.

Shot placement. Bergers are a fragmenting design. They will enter with a caliber sized entrance, go a few inches and expand and fragment. This is why they kill so well and so fast. An animal with destroyed vitals, ripped up arteries and huge oil leaks doesn't go far. If you want little dime sized exits all the time use a different design bullet. If you want dead animals fast, use Bergers as described above. Fragmenting bullets expel 100% of their energy into the animal. Fragmenting bullets increase the chances of terminal damage to vitals even if you are off the mark a bit.

I always go for the crease tight behind the shoulder just below center mass. Unless the animal angle makes me go in a shoulder and I don't feel there is time to wait for him to turn. Or he is so far out I know my impact velocity is low enough the bullet might need help for expansion and the bullet is going to exit no matter what.

Many may not see the value in the higher BC Berger bullets. But many will. Bullet placement is KING. Less wind drift from higher BC increases your odds for good placement.

Bottom line. Can a Berger fail? Sure it can. But no more than any other Bullet. No two shots are ever the same. Angle, placement, impact velocity, muscle density, hide thickness etc etc. THERE IS NO PERFECT BULLET FOR EVERY HUNTING SCENARIO!!

As a hunter, it is my responsibility to know my bullet and how it works. Then place it accordingly. Use the bullet that increases your odds the most. I use Bergers because when I go out, I don't know if the shot is going to be 100 or 1000. I want the bullet that gives me the very best odds of good placement and expansion for the toughest shot.

Good hunting.

Jeff

 

[FURMAN]

Broz nailed it.

 

[GKPrice]

Broz nailed it.

YES He did ......

 

[WesternHunter]

Broz said it all!

1 elk dead 10 ft from where he was hit with a berger at 100 yards. 2 mule deer dropped stone cold in their tracks from 200 yards and 465. I'm a fan!!

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[mcseal2]

I was picked as one of the testers for the 87gr 243 bullet before it was released to the public. They gave me 4 boxes of whatever Berger I wanted for doing the test. I'll copy my results below. For what it's worth I use the Berger 140gr in my 264, it's the only other Berger I've used on game personally. Myself and others have taken about 9 whitetail and 3 antelope with the 140 in my 264 and never had one travel far at all. Only negative I really saw was that they sometimes don't open fast enough for me on coyotes to make instant kills like a varmint bullet. They aren't designed for coyotes though. 2"-3" into a small broadside coyote is to far for expansion to initiate, but it's just right on a deer or antelope.

Here is my test result file I sent to Berger.

87gr Berger VLD test results

Testing done in Kansas, 1200ft elevation

Rifle
Custom 243 Win
20” #5 Montana barrel, cryoaccurized
Laminate thumbhole stock

Load data
Winchester case once fired
Winchester Lg rifle primer
44gr IMR 4831
87gr Berger VLD
COAL 2.792”

1st group was .52“ 3 shots in 1 hole and one that opened the group. The flier was probably my fault.

I had an accurate load in my 243 win with the 85gr Sierra HPBT gameking bullet and so I tried the 87 berger with it and had a winner.

Whitetail performance: My 243 with the 87gr berger was used by 3 other hunters during our deer season. They had all shot this rifle at targets and prairie dogs and were comfortable with it.

All entrance wounds on deer were caliber size, and none of the bullets exited.

Jamie shot her buck with my rifle and this bullet. She hit the deer at the last rib at 120yds and it was broadside. The bullet did massive internal damage, even throwing shrapnel into the inner thighs of the deer. It was poor shot placement but the internal damage was so severe the buck only went 20ft. A less destructive bullet may have resulted in a lost deer or long blood trail.

Beth shot her deer with my rifle. It was a small doe at 74 yards, the bullet dropped the doe in it’s tracks and did massive damage to the lungs and spine. It didn’t hurt the back straps, must have just been a little shrapnel that hit the spine. The results were the same as the deer she shot with the 95gr VLD last year.

Another neighbor used my rifle to take a huge bodied old buck at 226yds. The bullet hit the buck through the heart broadside and he only went 20ft before collapsing. Internal damage was massive, the heart was destroyed and the lungs took major damage.

For any hunter who may want to take multiple deer from one stand location this bullet is ideal. The tiny entrance wound and lack of an exit wound make for very little external bleeding to contaminate your area with scent. I plan to use it for antlerless season myself when I don't have to fight the girls for my rifle.

Varmint performance

I shot a coyote with the 87gr Berger at 230yds. He ran 140yds after the shot before going down. The entrance wound was caliber size and the exit wound only slightly larger. It was a small coyote, probably less than a year old. Pelt damage was minimal, but I was a little disappointed with how far he traveled. I've had similar results from the 95gr berger in the past at ranges over 175yds with the lower velocity from my short barrel. I can't fault the bullet for this, they are designed for big game not varmints and their delayed expansion works great on animals with a deeper chest cavity to expend energy in.

I got a chance to take 2 more coyotes with this bullet, and shoot targets out to 400yds.

The next coyote was shot at 225 yds and the bullet entered behind the onside shoulder, quartered through the coyote, and exited behind in front of the offside hindquarter. The coyote stayed on his feet for 15-20 seconds spinning and biting at the wound before dropping, and covered 35yds. The exit wound was 1” according to the ruler on my Leatherman.

The last coyote was at 412yds and I hit him to far back, at the very back of the lungs. He ran over a hill. I recovered him but was unable to find the exact location I shot him from, he probably covered 150yds after the shot. The exit wound matched the earlier ones.

As stated earlier, I think this is an excellent deer bullet but I would prefer a little more expansion and shock for coyotes. I’d love to see a 87gr VLD varmint bullet with the same BC and flight characteristics as this one. That would let a shooter fit the bullet to the use he planned for it. That would also probably lead to people using the varmint bullet for larger game it wasn’t designed for and cause problems. I’ll let smarter people than me figure that one out.

I shot 25 rounds over the chronograph with an average velocity of 3013fps. The slowest was 2942fps and the fastest was 3074fps. Most stayed within 25fps of the average, and the fastest loads were fired while waiting for wind to drop with a round in a warm chamber.

My first .52” group at 100yds proved to be very consistent. I shot this rifle on my 100yd range several times with very similar results. My rifle has had several thousand rounds shot through it and I think this is probably the limit of it/my ability with my shooting set-up. My rifle has a Leupold VXIII 4.5-14x40mm scope with the varmint hunter reticle.

I had the opportunity to shoot paper at longer range with the bullet this one time. The temperature was in the lower teens while I was shooting, and I had a variable crosswind of 5-8mph.

At 200yds I shot two 3 shot groups that measured .94 and 1.1 inches.

At 300yds I shot two 3 shot groups that measured 2.48 and 3.76 inches.

At 400yds I shot two 3 shot groups that measured 4.62 and 5.13 inches.

I feel that the bullet was capable of more accuracy than me and my rifle were. I realized when trying to seat the bullet out to touch the rifling how bad my rifle’s throat really was. I also shot my old pet load with the 85gr Sierra at 400yds and the results were not as good. The low BC of the Sierra and wind probably account for part of that. I feel the Berger performed to the limit of the ability of my equipment with me operating it.

In summary, I would not hesitate to use the 87gr Berger for any shot on deer I would take with a 6mm cartridge. I spent 2 hours last Sunday helping a color-blind friend blood trail a doe before a snow storm rolled in. Being unable to see the blood he searched blindly until dark with no luck, and then called me to help. I had to follow the light blood trail very slowly but did manage to recover the deer before the snow covered the trail. I told him about the Berger’s performance and I will be loading them for his rifle next year. He should not have to worry about a blood trail with this bullet placed well, the deer won’t make it far. I think this bullet will get all the available accuracy from a 1 in 10 twist barrel that likes it, and I had no trouble finding an accurate load. For varmints it will depend on what type performance you want from your bullet, I found it a bit to hard for coyotes at my velocity but pelt damage was minimal.

Thanks again for the opportunity to test your bullets, and keep up the good work. I would definitely take this one to market.

 

[JohnRP]

Last year used 185 gr berger in my 300wm in Alaska. Really liked them. Shot a nice dall sheep at 320 yd. he was a very hard quartering away shot. Had to aim by the hip to angle up in. I did put another shot in him just in case but didn't real need too.. Then I shot a grizzly quartering towards me at 100 yes. He ran less than 30 yd. Found two fragments agains the skin on the far side. The inside of that bear was destroyed. I aimed for a heart lung shot. Now I'm not recommending using Berger bullets for grizz but I knew I could take out the vitals at that angle. I don't think there is a bullet that's perfect. I have a friend who used a Barnes X that acted like a FMJ on a elk at 50 yd which I wouldn't have believed had I not help cut up the elk. There's no perfect bullet but some are better then others.

 

[doverpack12]

Broz has great info.

Having said that here is my experience. I shoot a 7mm STW and couldn't get 195's before the season and I already had a good 180 Hunting VLD load. Shot a medium sized mule deer at 70 yards and he never knew what hit him. Had a fist sized exit right behind the offside elbow. Lungs chunks and blood blew out the offside and covered every tree and bush/grass within 8-10 feet with chunks of lung and painted them red. Shot a cow elk somewhere 70-100 yards broadside. Shot behind the shoulder and a little low especially since I was shooting downhill pretty steep. Gave her some time than got on her trail. Caught up to her 150-200 yards later over a ridge. She saw me come over the ridge and got up. Shot her trotting quartering away 150-200 yards. I was resting against a tree. Shot went in mid body right behind the ribs, she took that and kept going so I shot her against little higher and farther forward. Shot went in a few inches off the short ribs and a few ribs up from the last full rib. She went a few more steps and laid down in some 4-5 foot tall firs. I watched for a little bit then made my way down. Probably 15 minutes by the time I got there. I was on her trail not much blood with no exits but I was in snow. Snuck through the trees and she jumped up somewhere around 10 yards. Pulled up shot her in the left side of the head since that's all I could see and hit just below the ear and a little foreward. She kept going and was going away from me so I shot again shot hit right at the base of the skull and out the nose. That put her down for good. My Bullets leave the barrel around 3065 fps. My conclusion after talking with many many trusted friends and others is that I believe the 7mm bergers are not constructed as heavily as the big 30 cal bullets seem to be. For mule deer on down with good to ideal shot angles I think they are fantastic. Elk and other big heavy game I believe there are better options designed to give better penetration especially on quartering shots. This is for 7mm 180 grain Hunting VLD bullets. I have some 195 grainers to try out so hopefully the slightly slower speed will benefit the bullet performance. I am currently working on a 175 nosler partition or swift A frame load to carry as a first shot. For my hunting shots close through trees are common and I don't always have the option to wait for that perfect ideal angle or you won't get a shot at all. I do on occasion shoot farther out and I enjoy the longer practice shots. There is far to many positive outcomes for mine to be the standard that's why I believe the 30's are built different.

 

[Broz]

Broz has great info. Having said that here is my experience. I shoot a 7mm STW and couldn't get 195's before the season . There is far to many positive outcomes for mine to be the standard that's why I believe the 30's are built different.

Last year we were testing the 195's for Berger. During one of our management elk hunts, we had the opportunity to kill several elk with the 195's from a 7mm-300 win MV was about 2950. As with every other bullet we have used in the 7mm's. It is now my, conclusion the 7mm's just will not, or can not put elk down like the larger 30's. I come to this conclusion after calling and talking to many in the industry that I trust. Even a couple I called to discuss this I expected to defend the 7mm's. They did not for terminal performance. Will a 7mm kill elk, sure they will. But many take a second shot. I have never seen anything like your experience, but I will concur the 7's often take more that one. After taking over a dozen elk with the 195's, if I were to keep using a 7mm, (which I will not) I would probably shoot the 180 HVLD. The velocity loss going to the 195 puts them about ballistically equal inside the effective distance of the 7mm's for hunting. After my disappointment with the terminal performance of the 195, I didn't see a gain using them. For my personal mid sized magnum hunting needs, I will be using my 300 win with a 215 Berger. It now sits at 34 and zero for one shot cold bore kills.

YMMV.

Jeff

 

[odin0226]

Lost a bull this year with a 230 berger, so yes failure is real. MV 3030 fps, impact velocity 1900 FPS. shot placement was perfect and it dropped dropped the bull; however, a follow up shot was required. After 2 shots, it still got away. Now , a lot of stuff has died to a 230, but I won't use it again (lesson learned).

 

[FURMAN]

Lost a bull this year with a 230 berger, so yes failure is real. MV 3030 fps, impact velocity 1900 FPS. shot placement was perfect and it dropped dropped the bull; however, a follow up shot was required. After 2 shots, it still got away. Now , a lot of stuff has died to a 230, but I won't use it again (lesson learned).

With all due respect you did not recover the animal so you have no clue if it was the bullet or not.

 

[WRO]

With all due respect you did not recover the animal so you have no clue if it was the bullet or not.

I've had one not open before, and my buddy shot a cow 5 times and had 2 pencil hole, it happens.

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[robby denning]

I didn't read the whole thread.

I've only killed two bucks with Bergers, both at 400+, one in a 7mm RM and other in 270 WSM. Second one I put a finishing round it at 70 yards, side entry, base of neck and the taxi just showed me the other day the cape had an entry and an exit on that close shot.

I really haven't shot them enough to say failures are rare but I can tell you they do the job and are very accurate. Using them again this year if that tells you anything.

I've killed three more bucks since I posted that, so five total; last four with 270 WSM, two with 130 Classic Hunters, two with 140 Classic Hunters with muzzle velocities between 3150 and 3400, ranges of 120 yards to 300 yards.

I'm very happy with Bergers. They tear up the vitals once they get in there. Latest buck was quartering away at 300 yards, one shot into the last rib, no exit, top of the lungs were soup.'

This is not an under-handed slap at those who have had failures. Big bucks might hit 300 lbs (most are 250 or so), just getting to the weight of a small cow elk and it only goes up from there.

 

[Mtslackcountry]

Does anyone have a picture of a berger that did not open? I just started using them last year. I have pretty good performance on 2 antelope, 2 bulls and a cow. That's in a 7mm mag with 180 Hunting vlds. 2985 fps.

 

[FURMAN]

I've had one not open before, and my buddy shot a cow 5 times and had 2 pencil hole, it happens.

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Absolutely it happens. I have seen A frames "fail". Without a bullet in your hand it is near impossible to blame the bullet. I lost a Kudu shooting a 215 out of 300 Win. I would never blame the bullet without seeing it. I felt like a made a good shot but my guess is I did not. Most "failed bullet" stories are from individuals that did not recover a bullet.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Absolutely it happens. I have seen A frames "fail". Without a bullet in your hand it is near impossible to blame the bullet. I lost a Kudu shooting a 215 out of 300 Win. I would never blame the bullet without seeing it. I felt like a made a good shot but my guess is I did not. Most "failed bullet" stories are from individuals that did not recover a bullet.

I had some not make it to the vitals. Well I say some, two bullets same lot. Was also a hotter type load

Since that day, I tossed/pulled entire lot, worked up another load w/different lot & not as hot. I since have never had another issue, and I still shoot them.

Could of been to hot of a load, or could of just been mfg error. No idea but I personally wouldn’t shot them if you have a MV over 3350/3400

 

[4ester]

I’m running 210 Bergers in my 300 RUM at 3080 FPS and they have performed flawless for me. From elk to antelope, from 50 yards to 550. Have taken 14+ animals thus far.

All Bullets can fail. Heck I’ve seen the infamous Nosler Partition pencil through an animal.


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