Alec Baldwin shooting

[cod007]

Then there’s this.... have any of these actors etc ever had to go thru a federal background check? If not, how is it that we mortals must jump thru all these federal hoops but these clowns get a free pass to handle and discharge weapons?

 

[robby denning]

You say it like it's a bad thing

We have sensitive kids on here. And some of them are 40 years old

 

[Desk Jockey]

some interesting commentary from the pros that was posted on another site.

Safety Bulletins – Contract Services

A non-profit organization, Contract Services administers a variety of programs for the benefit of the motion picture and television industry

www.csatf.org

https://www.csatf.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/01FIREARMS.pdf

A Statement from Concerned On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters​

October 30th, 2021
10-26-2021
This statement is made by a collection of leading On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters working within the motion picture industry. Foremost, we offer our condolences to the family and friends of Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, who tragically and needlessly lost her life on-set in New Mexico on October 21st. We also wish Director Joel Souza and all affected by this tragedy a speedy recovery. The fatal incident that occurred during filming of the production “Rust” is currently under investigation, and we ask that the media refrain from drawing conclusions before all the facts are known.
While we await the investigation and welcome its conclusions, there are some things we do know about the show “Rust,” how it was run, the poor choices that were made, and the circumstances that led to the death of Ms. Hutchins.
Point 1 – On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters have an exemplary performance history of safety, professionalism, and accomplishment in the film industry. High profile media attention, celebrity talent, and the demand for realism have pushed the skills of On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters to the highest levels in any industry, including among stunt performers, explosives and pyrotechnics and other high-risk participants in film production.
The safety of the actors and all crew members is our highest priority.
Industry records establish that there have been a total of three (3) firearm deaths on film sets since 1984. Of those three, two took place outside of California and with non- union or inexperienced crews. The last firearms death that took place on a studio/union film was Jon-Erik Hexum in 1984. From 1993 (the year of the Brandon Lee tragedy) to 2021 there were no firearms fatalities on any set in the United States or Canada. You will not find a related high-risk industry with a better safety record.
As a comparison, we cite film industry statistics. From 1990 until 2021 there were over 117 film industry deaths, with 23 attributed to Construction, 30 in aircraft related accidents, 23 involving Stunts, and at least 41 deaths distributed across the spectrum of Industry Trades. Firearms usage on sets, despite its high profile, represents an incredibly small percentage of on-set fatalities despite being considered a high-risk component of film production. We attribute this exceptional overall safety record to the professionalism and skill level of those On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters that handle firearms on the vast majority of film productions in the United States and Canada.
Point 2 – The recent authorized strike by IATSE and the tragedy on the set of “Rust” are related and indicative of the same underlying issue. Crews are overworked, under trained, under-supported, and there is an industry wide unwillingness to pay crews in a manner commensurate with their experience and cost of living. Attributed largely to New Media, the number of projects in production has increased exponentially. While at the same time, the formal and informal apprenticeship models that were the heart and soul of our industry have been destroyed by run-away production and related policies and incentives.
Point 3 – Firearms are ubiquitous on film sets and have been since the birth of our industry over 100 years ago. Our job is specifically intended to keep all actors and crew safe while providing the utmost realism and quality in film production. These goals can and do work together under the skilled supervision of On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters. Millions of blank rounds have been fired on film sets since 1990. The phenomenally low accident rate is a testament to the professionalism of the artisans and craftspeople who have made this industry their calling. Those of us who have taken on this responsibility make it a point of professional pride and honor to strictly follow established, tested, and proven safety procedures. These safety procedures were developed over time by skilled and experienced professionals, many of whom hold licenses and permits unique to the industry. These procedures should never be diminished or marginalized in the name of cost cutting or budget limitations.
If you can’t afford to do it right, if you can’t afford to take care of our crew, then you shouldn’t do it.
Point 4 – The tragic loss of life in this case was likely the result of incompetence and inadequate use of professionals who serve as the gatekeepers to the film industry’s safety protocols and standards. We can state that this tragedy was not caused by a lack of established rules or procedures. As On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters we see that the incident was completely preventable and should not have occurred, given the longstanding and well-established safety regimen that we work under and implement every day in our industry. The incident was caused, in part, by producers who were unwilling to hire competent people following our long established and tested firearms safety procedures. We are aware of numerous violations of Safety Bulletin Number 1 (see attached) that occurred on this production. Exactly how many violations and which ones will be confirmed by the investigation, but we believe that the evidence will show that this tragedy was a failure of protocol and not due to the need for new or additional regulations.
The vetting of On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters needs to be a priority.
It is becoming increasingly clear that “Rust” was a film where safety was not prioritized. It has been reported that “Rust” was a poorly run production, and that “corners were cut” in several areas, including critical safety concerns. There have been reports of crew walkouts over numerous crew safety complaints, including: travel time, lack of COVID 19 precautions, payroll issues, and firearms safety.
Point 5 – There is no substitute for the reliability and production value that a real firearm brings to a film or television project under the supervision of a properly trained On-Set Armorer or Weapons Master. In the wake of this tragedy there have been several calls to substitute other options in place of real firearms on set. This quick response is misguided and does not reflect an understanding of the industry, creative expectations, and decades spent refining safe on-screen simulated gunfire. The phenomenal firearms safety record that professional film crews have achieved is the result of consistent education with a relentless focus on safety and responsibility.
A single project’s refusal to recognize established safety protocols compounded by that project’s failure to utilize well trained professionals should not require changing the entire movie industry. Instead, it should put renewed focus on time-tested procedures and the importance of hiring professionals versed in proper on-set firearms safety protocols. For instance: A car accident at an intersection does not require elimination of vehicles, it requires adherence to the rules of the road and education and implementation of those rules among all participants. We call for renewed vigilance and commitment by Film Producers to recognize the importance of a safe work environment.
The tragedy in New Mexico is not an indictment of professional film crews’ ability to safely perform their craft. It is an indictment of the modern production culture, which for the last 30 years has pursued tax credits and found every way imaginable (and several that weren’t) to sacrifice crew health and safety in the name of budget consciousness. This tragedy was an apparent accident; but it was also a predictable outcome of the incentive structure within the modern film industry and how films are budgeted by producers.
Our film culture used to be an ecosystem of mutually supportive companies, studios, and crafts people who worked together to accomplish incredible things. We trained our community to the highest standards, and together we kept each other safe while creating our society’s preeminent art form.
There was a time when we trusted and could depend on each other. Somewhere along the way we lost sight of that. We hope this tragedy marks a turning point for our entire industry; a moment to refocus our collaborative efforts on crew safety by using time- honored procedures and the crews who understand them.
Respectfully,
The Unified Voice of On-Set Armorers and Weapons Masters

 

[GSPHUNTER]

So ya'll expect an actor to personally verify each round is a blank, on each weapon they handle, each time?

A single revolver, ok, no big deal.

Does the same rule apply to Keanu (or any actor) in an action film featuring a dozen(s) semi automatic guns, each with high capacity magazines? The actor would be hand inspecting and loading hundreds if not thousands of rounds, in dozens of magazines, several times a day for some of these scenes, and then required to keep each magazine in their direct custody at all times...

That sounds completely reasonable... /s

I agree there comes a point actors can't check every round. My BIG problem is why were there any rounds with bullets in them anywhere near the set.

 

[Mosby]

He should go to prison but I doubt he will. He will call in some political favors and calls will be made to and from people in high places in California and DC to the right people in NM.

 

[307]

I agree there comes a point actors can't check every round. My BIG problem is why were there any rounds with bullets in them anywhere near the set.

On that, we completely agree. It's the single best best safety measure for a film production environment.

Whomever brought live ammo, or knew about live ammo on set, is very likely to face severe legal consequences, and definitely should IMO.

 

[4fletch]

You could drop a handful of blanks, dummy rounds and live ammo and most of the people here could not tell the difference. There are dummy rounds in 45lc that look live from every angle specifically for the loading and unloading scenes. You can tell by weight. Or markings. Sure some have shot primers. Some have rubber. Some have holes. Point is Baldwin could have unloaded that pistol and still had no clue what was in it. Id bet half the people here or more would be head scratching as well. And of course its a movie set, sometimes you point at the camera, and there are people behind and near it.
It is for this reason that quite some time ago they decided every movie with guns needed an armorer. All weapons by rule MUST be under direct supervision of the armorer. All loading, unloading, checking and use of firearms on set MUST BE DONE BY OR UNDER the direct supervision of the armorer.
This person, the armorer, had to ask how to load blanks on her last armorer job. She was in no way qualified to be an armorer. This death falls directly on her. She is above all others directly the reason this happened.
A movie set is the one place where many of the rules we use to keep ourselves safe with firearms can not be applied... how we would ideally like. That is why there is supposed to be a paid firearms expert standing there with total control over the situation. I hope she pays for this dearly and may never work in the industry again.
As for Baldwin? I doubt he has the capacity to tell the difference between a realistic dummy and a live round, considering i know for a fact a lot of hunters could not, soldiers as well. Hes guilty of being mouthy and trusting the "pro" who was charged with the job.

 

[Rob5589]

Then there’s this.... have any of these actors etc ever had to go thru a federal background check? If not, how is it that we mortals must jump thru all these federal hoops but these clowns get a free pass to handle and discharge weapons?

They can receive some sort of exemption for movie making. I read an article about it that involved Mark Wahlberg (felony conviction) where he was allowed to handle guns for the purpose of making a movie/working.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

So based upon what some posters are saying…

Being an actor is great as you can permanently settle a “score” with someone on set and bare no responsibility as it will always be someone else’s fault.

 

[FLATHEAD]

Ultimately, he's responsible. But he will never do a day in jail.
More likely he will pay in a civil suit, or even settle out of court.
He will then, as a Hollywood Hypocrite, use the situation to further his anti gun agenda.

 

[540-Virginian]

Alec Baldwin fan here. I don’t agree with all his politics but like his fIlms.

have been in LA around some “entertainment“ people the last few days that I have known for years back to when I played a little bit in proximity to the movie industry. Most very left leaning anti gun. Lots of spirited discussion about this.

I asked one lady that thought Baldwin should be charged if she would feel the same if he was driving a car on set and the brakes failed, would she charge him? it would be a hard ask to expect an actor to inspect the car Brakes, right? Film sets are complex. Lots of moving parts for even small films. Through in guns, pyrotechnics, moving vehiles, mechanical set pieces and there are a lot of things that could hurt or kill you on a movie set. No way the guy in front of the camera is responsible for all that. The responsibility was primarily the armorer and it sounds like she was a dumpster fire. Maybe the Assitant director or some others could be blamed. You might be able to run that all the way up the flag pole to the producers since theRE seems to have been some signs that the armorer was incompetent that were ignored. IMO there is no way an actor can be held responsible for for the final check on a firearm. I would go so far as to say that idea is flawed because most of them aren’t expert enough to perform the checks. Maybe for a cowboy revolver but imagine if they hand Keanu reeves all the 6 guns he’s going to shoot in a John wick scene and say “it’s your job” or if they ask Arnold to clear and check that minigun he uses In the terminator. NO way that is on the actor. There are people on the set whose only job is handling the weapons and there are other people to oversee those people.

If you have any gun in your hand - no matter who you are - you better be trained in basic safety. Alec is guilty in my eyes. If this were a regular folk, I dont think we’d get off for ‘didnt’ know, was only practicing for a play in my living room…

just my two cents.

 

[String&stick]

You could drop a handful of blanks, dummy rounds and live ammo and most of the people here could not tell the difference. There are dummy rounds in 45lc that look live from every angle specifically for the loading and unloading scenes. You can tell by weight. Or markings. Sure some have shot primers. Some have rubber. Some have holes. Point is Baldwin could have unloaded that pistol and still had no clue what was in it. Id bet half the people here or more would be head scratching as well. And of course its a movie set, sometimes you point at the camera, and there are people behind and near it.
It is for this reason that quite some time ago they decided every movie with guns needed an armorer. All weapons by rule MUST be under direct supervision of the armorer. All loading, unloading, checking and use of firearms on set MUST BE DONE BY OR UNDER the direct supervision of the armorer.
This person, the armorer, had to ask how to load blanks on her last armorer job. She was in no way qualified to be an armorer. This death falls directly on her. She is above all others directly the reason this happened.
A movie set is the one place where many of the rules we use to keep ourselves safe with firearms can not be applied... how we would ideally like. That is why there is supposed to be a paid firearms expert standing there with total control over the situation. I hope she pays for this dearly and may never work in the industry again.
As for Baldwin? I doubt he has the capacity to tell the difference between a realistic dummy and a live round, considering i know for a fact a lot of hunters could not, soldiers as well. Hes guilty of being mouthy and trusting the "pro" who was charged with the job.

But he was a producer, and one of the biggest names on the set, this has a lot of influence. It sounds like there was a lot of safety issues going on, on this set (investigation will determine all) As well as an brand new armourer (read lower cost) and other concerns. At a minimum Alec Baldwin has civil liability for negligence and promoting an unsafe work environment as a producer. Investigation will reveal I'd there is a criminal angle but I wouldn't be surprised. If you are aware of live ammunition on set (cast members plinking) and continue to point a weapon at people and pull the trigger you are negligent!

 

[*zap*]

the trigger puller bears a great deal of the responsibility.

 

[4fletch]

But he was a producer, and one of the biggest names on the set, this has a lot of influence. It sounds like there was a lot of safety issues going on, on this set (investigation will determine all) As well as an brand new armourer (read lower cost) and other concerns. At a minimum Alec Baldwin has civil liability for negligence and promoting an unsafe work environment as a producer. Investigation will reveal I'd there is a criminal angle but I wouldn't be surprised. If you are aware of live ammunition on set (cast members plinking) and continue to point a weapon at people and pull the trigger you are negligent!

I believe Nick Cage had an issue with this same armorer on the movie she was on before this one. Same issues, misfires. And a couple on this set. You can get a producers credit for buying lunch, so i would not put too much in that. Whoever hired her for sure, esp if they were aware of her lack of ability and recent issues.
Im not trying to defend the guy although it comes across that way. Hes a good actor and i do my best not to take advice from people who play pretend for a living or listen to their political opinion because i find i can not enjoy what they do best after.
It sounds like the assistant director was the one causing the unsafe workplace. They also had just forced all union workers off set like 6 hours before.
There should not be live ammo on set. The guns they use should not be of a caliber or case design that is in use. In the 80s and 90s they had 8mm 1911s and High powers, that only fired 8mm blanks. they were not able to chamber a live round.
Perhaps Baldwin was being a negligent tool and will pay for it. Perhaps he was doing as directed. All i know is there seems to be a lot revolving around this incident. Would make a good movie.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

All this back and forth and really what it comes down to is, why were there rounds with bullets in them, live rounds if you will, on a movies set????

 

[Still Hunter]

Wow this was a long read. Stayed away from it. Tragedy. Baldwin is a tool. Lots of levels of “safety“ were skipped. This never should have happened. If I was handed a revolver, knowing I was supposed to point it in the direction of a camera, with someone behind the camera, I would make damn sure it was unloaded, and if they wanted to see the chambers loaded from the camera angle, I would have seen primers on those cartridges and said “ we got a problem here”. I check every firearm handed to me even after I have already seen it checked. I even shove my pinky finger in the action and feel for the open bore in the chamber on a bolt action rifle. Baldwin shares in the culpability of this accident. “He“ cocked the pistol, “He“ pointed the pistol and “HE”, no one else, pulled the trigger. He is not solely responsible but he only proved to all of us that his lack of responsibility was responsible for the death of a young lady who died needlessly and he could clearly have prevented it. Unfortunately he is just as guilty as the muzzle loader that shot the archer in Colorado this year. My two cents.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Answer?... Hell...he just gave you the answer! You grab that isht and you check it ya darn self!

Just like I'm sure just about any mofo up on Rokslide would do.. yes?

You're weilding a weapon. WE all know about Brandon Lee's fate and why tht happened with the mob wanting payback w/ Bruce Lee's fam. Soo.... knowing isht like that can go down, you don't Trust ANYBODY when it comes to a Firearm!

When I heard it was a period piece, and apparently back in the era where it was all revolvers, just before semi's.. my next thought was... since the cam can see the cylinders... I wondered how do they go about having an ammo that looks convincing on cam... where the audience can see within the cylinders... and yet have it not be a round loaded with a real bullet? Can they doctor up wax loads to make them look metallic?

So you can tell the difference between a dummy round and a live round?

Can you tell me how?

 

[Spoonman]

So you can tell the difference between a dummy round and a live round?

Can you tell me how?

One has a projectile and one doesn’t.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

So based upon what some posters are saying…

Being an actor is great as you can permanently settle a “score” with someone on set and bare no responsibility as it will always be someone else’s fault.

Well no. See, the SOP that if an actor does anything (like messing with ammo, opening the gun) that they're not explicitly told, everything stops and the gun is considered "hot" until it goes back to the AD and propmaster to be checked. That stops someone from doing something shady or stupid. Again, this is necessary because I like a training range these people are going to point the guns at each other on purpose.

The controls in place prevent Baldwin from putting a round in the gun. If anything, you'd need the armorer and AD to be involved to stage a murder like this and the actor doesn't matter.

But I guess for some folks here "cheap people cut corners and someone died as a result" isn't believable so we need a conspiracy that involves a bunch of people and a giant police investigation.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

One has a projectile and one doesn’t.

A dummy round literally has a projectile seated. That's what makes it a dummy.

So now we know that you wouldn't be able to identify a dummy round.