9MM ammo for bears defense?

[slim9300]

I really appreciate this thread. I'm a new bear hunter( at 50) and been looking at .45 and .44 mag but I'm reconsidering that now. I'm in southern washington so no grizz

You may be talking a 10mm Auto here, but either way it’s not in the same league as the .44 Mag. If you are talking .45 ACP, I can tell you that a .45 ACP creates more hydrostatic damage with an expanding round, but is a terrible penetrator when compared to a 9mm. I own a handful of .45 ACP handguns for self defense against humans, and have tested their ability to penetrate metals with a FMJ round (I realize this is not a scientific test nor representative of bone). But the 9mm crushes the .45 ACP on it’s ability to penetrate metal and I would guess this is due to the surface area of the bullet and low velocity. Either way, a .44 Mag and .45 ACP or 10mm aren’t even in the same league.

A .44 Mag can make 1600+ ft lbs. with the right +P ammo and configuration, but safely tops out around about 1300 in a pistol. A .45 ACP in comparison is lucky to make 600 ft. lbs. and a 10mm Auto tops out at about 800 ft. lbs. of energy.

If you are buying a semi-auto for bears I would either go with a 10mm or 9mm and some +P bear rounds. If you want lightest and smallest, 9mm is your round. If a few extra ounces and maybe an 1” of overall size doesn’t bother you, go with the 10mm. Both are easy to shoot quickly and remain controlled.

If you want a revolver. I think something like the S&W 329PD is the ideal choice but don’t expect quick or accurate follow up shots with a .44 Mag. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not terrible to shoot, it’s just nothing like a semi-auto pistol in typical calibers.


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[Sourdough]

One of the bears that was on top of me for a long time, not hurting me, but I could not move. And while there for that long period, I kept wondering if I had a handgun would it be prudent to shoot him in the foot, or the knee. I had earlier decided that shooting him up from the belly would have been a wrong move.

Over time I have pretty much decided that if I had a handgun that all things considered shooting him in the foot would have been the best option. Shooting him straight up from the belly, he would have likely dropped on me, plus that would have not been fatal. After a long period he moved off of me. Was interesting how smoothly and gracefully he did that, without even brushing me, other then my hair.

Worked out well for both of us. Did a lot of praying, it worked that time.

 

[Harrott]

I carry the M&P shield in my bono harness. Although I load a standard FMJ bullet. I hadn’t thought about buying the hardcast. Makes sense though. Thanks

 

[Beendare]

I do a lot of quick draw pistol shooting on steel plates....[about the most fun you can have with a handgun]

and FWIW, everyone shoots a semi auto faster and more accurately than a revolver. A guy that practices with one can really get good.

Oh sure a guy that practices can be decent with a revolver....but its much tougher. Two things working against you; The configuration of a revolver makes for more of a recoil impulse and then there is the long trigger pull.

Some great tutorials by Rob Lathum on how to shoot a semi auto pistol fast.....and if you are a revolver guy search Jerry Michiluk [sp?]

______

 

[davescarp]

glad i took the time to read the 10 pages here. really useful informative thread.

 

[Wapiti1]

One of the bears that was on top of me for a long time, not hurting me, but I could not move. And while there for that long period, I kept wondering if I had a handgun would it be prudent to shoot him in the foot, or the knee. I had earlier decided that shooting him up from the belly would have been a wrong move.

Over time I have pretty much decided that if I had a handgun that all things considered shooting him in the foot would have been the best option. Shooting him straight up from the belly, he would have likely dropped on me, plus that would have not been fatal. After a long period he moved off of me. Was interesting how smoothly and gracefully he did that, without even brushing me, other then my hair.

Worked out well for both of us. Did a lot of praying, it worked that time.

I kind of think shooting him would have been a bad idea. A bee lands on your arm and just sits there; you shoo it away, but probably don't hurt it. It stings you and you kill that little bastard.

Not knowing all of the story, it makes me wonder if he was just showing dominance and when he was satisfied you were cowed, he left.

Still a hell of a deal.

Jeremy

 

[Sourdough]

it makes me wonder if he was just showing dominance and when he was satisfied you were cowed, he left.

Yes........you are exactly 100% correct. That is why it was critical that I not move. https://mysurvivalforum.com/threads...d-studying-bears-short-essay.6095/#post-40569

 

[Dennis]

"Buffalo Bore 9mm +P Outdoorsman 147 grain Hard Cast FN"

I hunted with Phil Shoemaker and trust his account of 9mm Buffalo Bore loads. If it worked for him I trust it will work for me.

A second source of load testing was done by "Gun Tests Magazine" in a report on "Heavy 9mm Loads" in the November 2018 edition. They reported testing heavy 9mm loads primarily for personal defense, however they did include the Buffalo Bore 9mm load above. Penetration for personal defense loads was from 20" to 24" in water jugs. The Outdoorsman 147 grain load was the king in penetration at 48" and kept going as that was the max water jugs in their testing appliance. They rated it as an "A" for outdoors use. Buffalo Bore states expect 4' to 6' of penetration in animals.

I am not saying bigger isn't better, but for me like you it comes down to what will I carry everyday everywhere.

 

[Lowg08]

I hope you had extra underwear and pants lol

 

[rclouse79]

After seeing how tough bears are after getting punched with centerfire rounds over the past few years I am thinking about leaving my 10mm behind in favor of pepper spray.

 

[Sourdough]

I am not saying bigger isn't better, but for me like you it comes down to what will I carry everyday everywhere.

I have a lot of hand canons, I consider that I can rip off three shots with the 9mm or 40S&W in less time then I have recovered from the first shots recoil with the hand canons, and returned to "center of mass" bear. That may not result in three times the tissue damage, but I'll bet it is more the two times the tissue damage of each canon round. Plus you have tripled the wild chance of hitting a leg bone or brain, or even taking out the lower jaw would help in net result.

 

[DOESLAYER]

A 22LR in its eye socket will do the job but under duress its a whole different scenario and variables @ play, so I'am falling back on the little Jiujiutsu i know. JK

IMO if the bear wants you dead it will most likely kill you...you have a small chance with a gun.

 

[Rich M]

I'd go w something like the underwood xtreme defender. It is a displacement round that has high penetration. There's a couple diff manufacturers and the re iews all saw penetration.

I'm trying to find some to try on deer this fall, 9mm or 357 mag.

 

[TheGDog]

So... do I have this general consensus correct?... from you guys which have taken bears by other methods... that a 9mm with either hardcast.. or Xtreme Penetrators.... for just black bear... *should* do the trick... assuming the shooter can hold their nerve and place the shots where needed with purpose.

Would those of you with the experience say this summation sounds about right? I'm asking because I have an old trusty .357 Mag revolver for Bear Country. But loaded it's like 39oz and feels like an anchor. I have a lil Sig P238 .380acp I've been staggering Xtreme Penetrators and Dynamic Research HP's into, and taking with me to non Bear Country. I fully trust that I could take out a MtnLion with it. I did have to dispatch a youngish 2x2 Mule Deer once that had gotten injured in a car collision, and it worked fine for that, to the back of the head style. On occasion, though it makes me nervous as hell, I've taken the .380 with me into Bear Country as backup for in the tent at night. I reasoned that if I'm in the tent and spraying Bear Spray outward from within the tent...high likelihood I'd catch some of it reflecting back into the ten as it passes out the opening and that stuff burns like the sun itself! Plus the revolver you just can't see the sights at night. The lil Sig has great night sights.

So I've been doing A LOT of contemplating on what to get that's more powerful than the .380, but that can still suffice as bear backup. First thought is G29... but loaded it's something like 33oz almost. Less than 39oz of the revolver, and more rounds, but still heavy for 7 mile hike in. Like the thought of super lightweight of the G26. Just leary of a 9mm out of that little 3.43" barrel making enough velocity to have decent enough increase in ft-lbs to warrant the purchase. Then got to checking out the G27. But when inspecting the Underwood Extreme Penetrators... oddly enough... the 9mm loading of them has a few more ft-lbs listed than the .40 S&W?, even though heavier projectile!

Plus the other thought re: 9mm was that if it ended up being something like G26 or thereabouts... shouldn't be hard for Mama to use it for Home Defense if that need arises someday. Whereas dunno if her or the boy could proficient handle a G29.

And I'm in Cali so it's kinda like... not as good justification for getting a G20 since I wouldn't even be able to make use of the regular sized magazine as originally intended by men with brains, not like the freaking idiots the dumb voters in my state routinely keep falling for. Plus weight get back up to similar to the revolver again.

So since I'll never be confronted with a grizz, and likely never confronted with any appreciable large in size black bear... I'm thinkin' a 9mm should cover my needs pretty copastetic, right? Long as it's got LeHigh Penetrators in it. Yes?

EDIT: Also, due to injury, I essentially CAN NOT hope to run away, NOR climb a tree. I HAVE to stand and fight if anything gets a wild hair up it's butt to mess with me. This is the other part of the equation that has me hesitant to rely on just a 9mm.

 

[UpSideDown]

If I had to carry a 9, I would carry Underwood hard cast. That’s really begging for a good shot though.

 

[badkneesbro]

Funny thing is the "Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman" is the most accurate round Ive fired out of my little" S&W Shield M&P 9" so far. But Ive only got 250 rnds. through it so far.

 

[dla]

You may be talking a 10mm Auto here, but either way it’s not in the same league as the .44 Mag. If you are talking .45 ACP, I can tell you that a .45 ACP creates more hydrostatic damage with an expanding round, but is a terrible penetrator when compared to a 9mm. I own a handful of .45 ACP handguns for self defense against humans, and have tested their ability to penetrate metals with a FMJ round (I realize this is not a scientific test nor representative of bone). But the 9mm crushes the .45 ACP on it’s ability to penetrate metal and I would guess this is due to the surface area of the bullet and low velocity. Either way, a .44 Mag and .45 ACP or 10mm aren’t even in the same league.

A .44 Mag can make 1600+ ft lbs. with the right +P ammo and configuration, but safely tops out around about 1300 in a pistol. A .45 ACP in comparison is lucky to make 600 ft. lbs. and a 10mm Auto tops out at about 800 ft. lbs. of energy.

If you are buying a semi-auto for bears I would either go with a 10mm or 9mm and some +P bear rounds. If you want lightest and smallest, 9mm is your round. If a few extra ounces and maybe an 1” of overall size doesn’t bother you, go with the 10mm. Both are easy to shoot quickly and remain controlled.

If you want a revolver. I think something like the S&W 329PD is the ideal choice but don’t expect quick or accurate follow up shots with a .44 Mag. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not terrible to shoot, it’s just nothing like a semi-auto pistol in typical calibers.


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If you practice DA with the 329pd, you can rip off a cylinder full very fast with minute of bear attack accuracy. I know I can.
Six 1000ft/lb .430" 270gr WFN rounds is why I carry my 31oz security blanket.
But I reload and shoot a lot.

 

[SteveCNJ]

Make sure if you choose to go with a 9mm and +P ammo that your gun can handle the extra pressure. From what I see there aren't many non polymer 9mm handguns out there.

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[FLAK]

If it can be done with a "9" then my .45 Super with 255gr. BB Hardcast should be good. And, it brings new hope to us .357 lovers.

 

[SIontheHunt]

View attachment 209866

A 22LR in its eye socket will do the job but under duress its a whole different scenario and variables @ play, so I'am falling back on the little Jiujiutsu i know. JK

IMO if the bear wants you dead it will most likely kill you...you have a small chance with a gun.

Yeah a small 97% chance with a handgun. Better if your gun fires and you can shoot under pressure.

Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 Incidents