7mm REM Mag-No Dial Project

[WeiserBucks]

Go shoot that setup at 600 without dialing and post the results.

 

[Kjc103]

You di

Even within this idea, the 300 yard zero doesn't make sense. With a 100 yard zero, aiming high lungs is in the vitals to 300 anyway even without dialing or holding over.

You still have to hold over at 350+ so why worry about holding under from 0-300 (where probably 90% of your shots will be) just to save .5 mil at 450?

You do not have to hold over at 350, the bullet will in fact be in the vitals.

At 400 you’re just holding high but still on the animal.

This is the old school MPBR technique or dads used to use. It works very well but you hit a wall pretty quick.

The thread is about:

1. Reliably pushing the limits of MPBR
2. Reliably using a good Mil reticle to, in practice, push those limits further. Potentially out to 650 yards.

For me, 650 yards is the limit of what I would personally feel confident in shooting game at. Even then, high winds, particularly in mountainous terrain, would deter me.

 

[nm.otter]

2. Reliably using a good Mil reticle to, in practice, push those limits further. Potentially out to 650 yards.

After having spent a few weeks with a SWFA 6x MQ Gen2, I can say that Quick Drop on a 6.5 Creedmoor turns it effectively into a BDC reticle. MPBR isn't a big issue -- after 200 yards or so I'm setting up a position, and the reticle is good to about 500 yards at 6x.

 

[Kjc103]

Go shoot that setup at 600 without dialing and post the results.

That’s the plan!

 

[Kjc103]

It's not faster and simpler though. Maybe if you're holding exactly on 0.5 or 1.5 but most holds you're going spend just as much time trying to figure out where to hold with your imprecise aiming point as you would to put a few clicks in the scope. Simpler is holding the crosshairs in the middle where you want to hit.

Further, the diamonds in the mil-quad are 0.2 mil tall by 0.4 mil wide thick. That's roughly 4.7" tall and 9.4" wide @ 650 yards. Not exactly a precise aiming point.

That actually makes a ton of sense.

I know it works to 500 yards on a creedmoor/308.

It may just fall apart past that. Regardless of the better ballistics and extended zero for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[WeiserBucks]

How do you plan to handle wind? Hold and hope?

 

[Kjc103]

How do you plan to handle wind? Hold and hope?

No, as long as it’s a light to moderate wind, old school theoretically would work. A 5 mph wind would be 10 inches. Hold edge of the vitals into the wind.

 

[Castle Rock]

A hope and a prayer

 

[Macintosh]

I really would like to see the “no dial cold bore challenge”. No practice, no dialing, from a field position, on a 10” plate at a called 400+ yd maximum effective range, and, because almost everyone who does so says they use mpbr because dialing is slow—maybe even on a time limit. I tried and discovered I couldnt do it to my own satisfaction, Im genuinely curious what folks can reliably do using this method. I have to say, even as a guy who uses and will continue to use a mpbr-style zero on my woods rifle (MAXIMUM possible shots 200-ish yards, and even thats highly unlikely), I’m skeptical, but Im genuinely curious.

 

[JGRaider]

I really would like to see the “no dial cold bore challenge”. No practice, no dialing, from a field position, on a 10” plate at a called 400+ yd maximum effective range, and, because almost everyone who does so says they use mpbr because dialing is slow—maybe even on a time limit. I tried and discovered I couldnt do it to my own satisfaction, Im genuinely curious what folks can reliably do using this method. I have to say, even as a guy who uses and will continue to use a mpbr-style zero on my woods rifle (MAXIMUM possible shots 200-ish yards, and even thats highly unlikely), I’m skeptical, but Im genuinely curious.

I'd be skeptical too. You ought to make it a "no rangefinders allowed" challenge while you're at it at unknown ranges.

 

[alexnelon]

You di

You do not have to hold over at 350, the bullet will in fact be in the vitals.

At 400 you’re just holding high but still on the animal.

This is the old school MPBR technique or dads used to use. It works very well but you hit a wall pretty quick.

The thread is about:

1. Reliably pushing the limits of MPBR
2. Reliably using a good Mil reticle to, in practice, push those limits further. Potentially out to 650 yards.

For me, 650 yards is the limit of what I would personally feel confident in shooting game at. Even then, high winds, particularly in mountainous terrain, would deter me.

If you shoot a 1moa rifle, your cone of dispersion at 350 yards plus 3 tenths of drop could absolutely fall outside the vitals of an animal.

I fully understand the concept, it just doesn’t work. You can’t have MPBR at 650. Even with your 300 yard zero you’re missing under the animal at 365-380.

From 300-650 yards your bullet is dropping over 2 mils (4 feet). You have to hold over or dial or your bullet will be in the dirt.

So since you’re going to be accounting for drop anyway, why try to make up new math just to push the distance at which you have to hold by 75-100 yards?

 

[Kjc103]

If you shoot a 1moa rifle, your cone of dispersion at 350 yards plus 3 tenths of drop could absolutely fall outside the vitals of an animal.

I fully understand the concept, it just doesn’t work. You can’t have MPBR at 650. Even with your 300 yard zero you’re missing under the animal at 365-380.

From 300-650 yards your bullet is dropping over 2 mils (4 feet). You have to hold over or dial or your bullet will be in the dirt.

So since you’re going to be accounting for drop anyway, why try to make up new math just to push the distance at which you have to hold by 75-100 yards?

I don’t think anyone is talking about a MPBR of 650.

Unless they come out with a cartridge that shoots like 8,000 fps.

 

[SDHNTR]

And why is nobody talking about the inability to actually shoot a good zero at 300 yards?

 

[alexnelon]

And why is nobody talking about the inability to actually shoot a good zero at 300 yards?

They claim that they can just sight in 2.5634622 inches high at 100.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Op, just go for it, you’ll figure out your limits soon enough and what you may want to change if they aren’t what you’re after.

You just trying to get away from buying a new rangefinder? And I assume you have a chronograph?

Go grab a sig kilo 6k 8x32 and thank me later.

It will spit out your Mil hold for drop and wind as fast as it spits out the range and it’s instant fast.

And you can zero wherever you like and let the sig handle everything past mpbr. Plus add backup data that you are mentioning to stock or whatever so any ole rangefinder can feed you what you need.

I like Mpbr zero but don’t want any hold thinking until past that, also I don’t like big game only mpbr as I like to shoot coyotes so 5” or less generally my goal. Also as guys have mentioned your own field moa shift, less is more there imo. We generally shoot and kill before we need rangefinders and range after it’s dead lol so we set up for max speed in the fafo ranges. All solutions for beyond that will work, just practice so you’re good with it and giver.

 

[Kjc103]

Op, just go for it, you’ll figure out your limits soon enough and what you may want to change if they aren’t what you’re after.

You just trying to get away from buying a new rangefinder? And I assume you have a chronograph?

Go grab a sig kilo 6k 8x32 and thank me later.

It will spit out your Mil hold for drop and wind as fast as it spits out the range and it’s instant fast.

And you can zero wherever you like and let the sig handle everything past mpbr. Plus add backup data that you are mentioning to stock or whatever so any ole rangefinder can feed you what you need.

I like Mpbr zero but don’t want any hold thinking until past that, also I don’t like big game only mpbr as I like to shoot coyotes so 5” or less generally my goal. Also as guys have mentioned your own field moa shift, less is more there imo. We generally shoot and kill before we need rangefinders and range after it’s dead lol so we set up for max speed in the fafo ranges. All solutions for beyond that will work, just practice so you’re good with it and giver.

I use the (10k?) binos. They work great!

 

[Macintosh]

I don’t think anyone is talking about a MPBR of 650.

Unless they come out with a cartridge that shoots like 8,000 fps.

I definitely misunderstood the first post, I thought it had been clear you specifically wanted your mpbr to reach to 650. Which I agree isnt realistic.

As far as whether this is worth pursuing, is it correct you already have both the rifle and scope? The only expense to try this would be some ammo and range time, and perhaps a little bruising. Zero at 100, and dial to your 250 yard solution (or whatever) and you can quickly and easily experiment with various zeros, and practice and find out where you can reliably make cold, first round hits holding fur versus using the reticle, from hunting positions. The only questions I see are 1) how big of a zero offset you can manage before you start missing targets inside your mpbr, due to the built-in error2) where you need to start using the reticle hashes, 3) where you need to start just dialing and 4) whether this^ is any “better” than just practicing to become more proficient at dialing. (I only say that since it seems you are trying to avoid dialing).

I +\- tried this with a 270win and decided it was better and just as fast to simply dial when I was trying to hit deer-sized targets. Between me and the particular reticle I had (a fairly standard mil dot), when I added time pressure I just couldn't hit reliably past relatively moderate range, unless I took more time than it did to just dial in the first place. For me, using the reticle broke down pretty quick around 400ish regardless of how much time I used. Past 400ish I found it easy to get lots of impacts that were CLOSE, I just had a very high percentage that were “just off the plate”, i.e. would likely have been a wounded animal. You have a different scope and a different trajectory, so Im sure your result will be different at least to a degree. I’ll be interested to hear where you land after practicing it for a bit.

 

[TaperPin]

And why is nobody talking about the inability to actually shoot a good zero at 300 yards?

Nobody is saying you can’t shoot at 100 yards to adjust the scope, but the starting point is 300 yards. Scopes dial down below zero as well as up. For scopes that don’t dial it’s as simple as knowing what the height of impact above the aiming point should be. Right? Or is there a something I’m missing.

I don’t use the crutch of shooting at 100 yards and go straight to 300. If someone can’t judge what effect wind is having at that distance at the range you shoot at every week, what chance do you have at twice that range in uneven terrain?

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I use the (10k?) binos. They work great!

Are you using the ballistic function of them? Where you input your details to the app and create the profile for that rifle/load/zero, then sync the curve to the bino unit?

May have to go back and read post 1 lol. Trying to figure your game plan. Just trying to avoid dialling for obvious zero retention issues or perhaps aging eyes, or, using non-ballistic rangefinders? And relying on reticle for solutions? You’re all over it with what I do and backup data methods to cover off ballistic output failures from electronics, so just curious why not just roll with what the sig solutions and apply to reticle and zero where ya like?

 

[LaHunter]

Okay, so I’m working on a project I would like some feedback on.

I have a Sako S20 in 7mm RM that’s just been sitting around, unfired, for over a year. I started playing with the ballistics in my calculator and I got an idea. If I blend the merits of the old school, hold fur, simplicity with the newer understanding of ballistics, I might have the best of both worlds.

The goal:

-not have to worry about dialing a scope until 650 yards or more.

-not have to be really precise with a wind call until further than that range.

-Be able to simply line the reticle up and pull the trigger for most hunting situations.

………however, if the situation calls for it, easily be able to dial as much as necessary.

I working with a 150 ELDX at 3,300 fps. G1 BC is .570. I’m going to use a SWFA 3-9 in Mil.

The numbers, at my elevation (6,500 ft) are as follows:

Zero: 300 yards.

350…..no hold necessary at all!

400 .5 mils

450 .78 mils

500 1.06 mil

550 1.36 mil

600 1.67 mil

650 1.99 mil

Basically, I can just quickly use the reticle, hold slightly into the wind, and the bullet will land in the vitals.

As far as wind, this is an 8mph load. So up to 650, it’s not a lot to worry about.

The biggest problem right now is that I’m in the 20 ft lb recoil range. So it’s doable but challenging to spot shots. However, with the zoom pulled back, it’s actually pretty achievable.

In the future, a 22 creed with a 77tmk would be a light recoiling alternative.

Worth pursuing?

I think if you actually get out and attempt this in field conditions on 8-10” targets, your theory will fall apart. Holding for elevation and wind in field conditions at 600+ yards is not the best method for making accurate hits on target