General RE LEE
WKR
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2019
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- 1,925
This thread inspired me to load up some 178 grain ELD-X over 58.5 grains Ramshot Hunter for my dad’s 30-06.
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Ok, this is the crux of the disagreement it seems. Can we agree that something is only “real” when it can be measured, repeated and validated consistently? If so, please explain how and what “shock” is, how it is measured; and exactly how, when two wounds created are identical in the exact same spot- one applies “shock”?
We finally agree on something!I didn't though, did I.
I simply pointed out your oxymoron & equated it to another oxymoron. I neither belittled, nor made fun of you in any way.
But you're a better man than me, so I'm possibly wrong.
The motivation is they kill just as efficiently and people are more accurate.Trying to keep an open mind...
In my opinion, what I have seen has been measured, repeated, and validated many times over a 30+ years. I will openly admit that I have not tried, nor condoned, intentionally using some of the smaller calibers combined with the bullets you are discussing. I do have a couple recent experiences with 6.5s vs 30 cals but in the spirit of this discussion, will chalk up what I saw to possible history bias based on what I expected to see.
Questions-
Are the elk you have witnessed recently been primarily cows or bulls? General region of the country?
Were there any quartering shots on big bulls taken where the bullet had to either pass through the paunch to reach the vitals or go through the point of the shoulder? If so, what were your observations?
What was your motivation for using and encouraging these small calibers on elk?
My response was meant for Form but I'll entertain.The motivation is they kill just as efficiently and people are more accurate.
Except that recoil is one of the biggest factors why people develop poor shooting habits. Give me a T3X in 223 and one in 300 WSM and I can probably tell you which one the vast majority of people will shoot more accurately at common hunting distances.My response was meant for Form but I'll entertain.
The above statement is In your opinion.
That still doesn't answer my question though. What was the motivation for trying initially? And through that trial and error process of trying to find the minimum that would "kill just as efficiently", were any animals lost or wounded? I'm guessing you weren't pioneering this trend so I don't expect an answer I just wonder why...
More accurate is a pretty broad statement that takes for granted way too many variables. Easier to handle, lower recoil, etc. should really take that place in the argument imo. Remember, recoil happens after a bullet has exited the barrel so it has zero bearing on the accuracy of the rifle.
Questions-
Are the elk you have witnessed recently been primarily cows or bulls? General region of the country?
Were there any quartering shots on big bulls taken where the bullet had to either pass through the paunch to reach the vitals or go through the point of the shoulder? If so, what were your observations?
What was your motivation for using and encouraging these small calibers on elk?
I have killed 3 of 6 deer I’ve taken with spine shots. Always blamed my shotgun for not being sighted well, then I did it again this year with a rifle. Not a pretty sight, shows and media rarely depict the scene but it is not a pretty sight. I opt towards slitting their neck or putting a second bullet in them after this. I look forward to a day where I have land/time/money to become a better shotAs to your deer dropping to the shot with a broadhead, as an experienced bowhunter myself all i can say is that you must've spine shot a helluva lot of deer. Having bowhunted myself for around 20 years, being a former PBS member & having literally all my friends be bowhunters, the only critters I've ever personally witnessed, or heard of first hand dropping at the shot, were spine shot. Most have run at minimum 30yds, the larger percentage far further, simply because that's how arrows work. There isn't the sudden blood pressure drop or deflation of the lungs like you get with a bullet. It's a slower process altogether & the 'bang flop' just doesn't happen as it does with a good bullet, from a suitable rifle. I've seen deer simply not react to being hit with a good COC broadhead & carry on feeding for 20 or 30 seconds, I've seen them tuck, buck, rear, backflip, roll & go through all sorts of acrobatics before setting off at a dead sprint, but the only time I've seen them drop, they had their spine severe or shattered & were very alive, but paralyzed.
I had rotator cuff surgery so shifted and found out the effectiveness on elk didn’t change. The 6.5 was much easier to shoot and practice with.My response was meant for Form but I'll entertain.
The above statement is In your opinion.
That still doesn't answer my question though. What was the motivation for trying initially? And through that trial and error process of trying to find the minimum that would "kill just as efficiently", were any animals lost or wounded? I'm guessing you weren't pioneering this trend so I don't expect an answer I just wonder why...
More accurate is a pretty broad statement that takes for granted way too many variables. Easier to handle, lower recoil, etc. should really take that place in the argument imo. Remember, recoil happens after a bullet has exited the barrel so it has zero bearing on the accuracy of the rifle.
When was your surgery and how long did it take before you were shooting again? Im assuming your surgery was on your shoulder that you hold your rifle into? I might need right rotator cuff surgery this summer so wondering if it will affect my fall hunting plans.I had rotator cuff surgery so shifted and found out the effectiveness on elk didn’t change. The 6.5 was much easier to shoot and practice with.
Not the OP, but had rotator cuff surgery on my "gun shoulder". I don't know that there's a simple, single answer. My ortho said the recovery depended largely upon the surgery needed - - - simple tear, multiple tears (I had three complete tears), age, general health and fitness, etc. My doc wasn't a shooter, and was more familiar with activities like swinging a bat or golf club, digging, chopping with an ax, etc. I'm thinking he had me hold off shooting a centerfire for, IIRC, about four months (just not sure). He'll likely err on the side of caution, and I'd certainly listen to him. I do remember my doc saying ("threatening" might be a better description) that I did not want to endure the "rebuild" if I either screwed up the initial repair, or let it go until the tears were so bad they couldn't be fixed normally. He had some auto analogy like comparing a tune-up to a complete engine rebuild.When was your surgery and how long did it take before you were shooting again? Im assuming your surgery was on your shoulder that you hold your rifle into? I might need right rotator cuff surgery this summer so wondering if it will affect my fall hunting plans.
Thanks for this info! Mine is a likely a minor tear from an incident that happened over 10 years ago so hopefully not a complete rebuild like you say. The 4 months period sounds about right from other surgeries I've had so maybe when I get around to scheduling this I'll try for at least a 6 month cushion before I'll need to shoot.Not the OP, but had rotator cuff surgery on my "gun shoulder". I don't know that there's a simple, single answer. My ortho said the recovery depended largely upon the surgery needed - - - simple tear, multiple tears (I had three complete tears), age, general health and fitness, etc. My doc wasn't a shooter, and was more familiar with activities like swinging a bat or golf club, digging, chopping with an ax, etc. I'm thinking he had me hold off shooting a centerfire for, IIRC, about four months (just not sure). He'll likely err on the side of caution, and I'd certainly listen to him. I do remember my doc saying ("threatening" might be a better description) that I did not want to endure the "rebuild" if I either screwed up the initial repair, or let it go until the tears were so bad they couldn't be fixed normally. He had some auto analogy like comparing a tune-up to a complete engine rebuild.
It was mid June, I hunted mid October, but didn’t practice prior. My father in law checked zero for me, my wife, mother in law were the packers. Dr ws more concerned with me slipping and reach for a branch. You need to be really careful. It was my right shoulder, I shoot right. Did my l ft the following fall but after the season. Rotators are no fun, but feel great nowWhen was your surgery and how long did it take before you were shooting again? Im assuming your surgery was on your shoulder that you hold your rifle into? I might need right rotator cuff surgery this summer so wondering if it will affect my fall hunting plans.
I'm going to be playing with Hunter powder in my Tikka as soon as it warms up, going to try a few different bullets. I have high hopes for the 178s, they're a lot less expensive than Berger 190 hunters.This thread inspired me to load up some 178 grain ELD-X over 58.5 grains Ramshot Hunter for my dad’s 30-06.
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I’ve seen cheek pads before, but not as thick as the stock they’re sitting on.This thread inspired me to load up some 178 grain ELD-X over 58.5 grains Ramshot Hunter for my dad’s 30-06.
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I'm going to be playing with Hunter powder in my Tikka as soon as it warms up, going to try a few different bullets. I have high hopes for the 178s, they're a lot less expensive than Berger 190 hunters.