6.5 creed vs 30-06

[gerry35]

Well it’s the internet so at best you can only expect 1/10 people to not be retarded.

That sure is the truth lol

 

[robtattoo]

If I choose to kill, I want it to be as immediate as it can be.

But you still bowhunt.......

Being schooled in rifle caliber ethics from a bowhunter is like getting a seatbelt ticket from a motorcycle cop.

 

[OdinIII]

You literally can't make this shit up. This is beyond stubborn beliefs.

I once was invited to a good friend’s hunting club and was fortunate enough to take several deer on the first morning using 150 grain Game Kings in a .308. My friend was very impressed that the deer dropped and the damage that he saw. At the time he was using a 30-06. When I saw him next he had traded for a nearly identical .308. I never did get him to understand that his rifle would have done the same or more damage had he chosen to use the same bullets.

 

[Formidilosus]

As close as I can remember, I have been a part of 73 elk kills that were either me as the shooter or someone in my immediate vicinity. Most have been inside of 300 yards.

Thank you for responding sir. I’m right around the same number of elk that I have personally killed or was the spotter for, and have completed all field necropsies on those elk. I was apart of 20 elk this season. Rifles used were from 223 to 300prc and distances were from 80 yards to 803 yards. Last season it was 14 elk with 223’s to 300 PRC, and from 60’ish yards to 990 yards. If I remember correctly, the year before that was 12’ish elk, etc. In our group the two most commonly used cartridges to kill elk are currently the 6.5cm and 223 with heavy TMK’s, ELD-M’s, and ELD-X for projectiles. It used to be 300 WM, and is trending now to 223’s and 6mm’s.

I do appreciate you discussing this with me, and please do not take my responses in a poor way- I am just trying to explain what we consistently see every year. I will say, that if someone insists on using bonded, controlled expansion, or monolithic bullets…. There’s no real discussion- they kill slower on average when seen in large numbers than heavy for caliber rapidly upsetting bullets such as ELD-M and ELD-X, TMK’s and Bergers. I 100% would rather hunt any elk anywhere with a 223 and 77gr TMK, than a 30-378 with Barnes Mono.

The short answer is what we constantly see: we is that there is no measurable difference in same/same hits from different calibers. There absolutely are differences between different bullets in the same calibers, but not between calibers.

In every single case that I have experienced, when people believe that a gun is “small” and the animal doesn’t immediately drop, they shoot it again, and then say that the caliber is “too small”. Those same exact people when shooting a “big gun” and the animal doesn’t drop immediately they say “man, elk are just tough”; totally ignoring or not recognizing that the animals reaction was the same as the small gun. It’s mostly perception. We “feel” there is a difference, not that there actually is a measurable difference.

As far as calibers, only a few stand out and those were the "extremes" to me or the ones that went bad. The smallest was a .243 on 3 different occasions. The largest was a 30-378. I do not have an accurate record of the actual bullets used but it was common practice in our camps to ensure clients were using a "suitable" elk bullet.

So this is where I can already see a large difference- “suitable elk bullets”. In multiple of hundreds of deer, elk, antelope, bear, etc- “suitable elk bullets” absolutely create smaller wounds and the animals stay on their feet longer and travel measurably farther before incapacitation, than heavy for caliber rapidly upsetting bullets. That’s from 22cal to 338’s, and from less than 60 yards to 990 yards. If I went by what I have seen with large 30cal magnums and “tough” bullets I would absolutely say that 30 cals aren’t big enough.

Of the 73, 3 elk were not recovered in time to salvage the meat. One with a .243, one with a 25-06 and one with a 300mag. The .243 and the 25-06 were vital hits that passed through but the elk were able to travel far enough to prevent us from finding them in a timely manner. The 300 hit was in a non-vital area.

That’s a projectile issue. In over 20 elk killed the last couple of year with 6mms and 108gr ELD-M’s and 115gr DTAC Noserings, they don’t go anywhere generally- one trotted with the herd for right at 80 yards and fell. That’s the farthest by far. We’re at about 30 elk with 223’s and they actually have a shorter incapacitation times after the first hit than the 300 WM and PRC’s. That doesn’t mean that the 300’s aren’t good; it just means that animals are individuals unto themselves and even 30 elk with the same chambering and bullets are barely enough data/examples to form solid conclusions.

As far as reactions, most elk hit with medium through heavy calibers reacted similarly to double lung hits. They showed immediate reaction and were down in a relatively short distance. A decent percentage of the elk hit with lighter calibers showed virtually no reaction when hit through both lungs. Most of those died in a reasonable distance to make recovery uncomplicated.

This is 180° different from my experience and those I hunt with. The skin ripples more with larger calibers when using rapidly upsetting bullets than it does with smaller calibers, however the reaction is exactly the same- hit them, they hunch up and stand still, or slowly walk until they start swaying and fall over.

The ‘22-‘23 season was the first time that we have seen poor hits with smaller calibers- 6.5 and below. Have seen plenty with 7mm and 30cals before, but not “small” guns. 6 out of 20 elk I was apart of this year had non-double lung hits for the first shot with 6.5’s and below. 4 of the 6 the first hit was in the liver and stomach- the farthest animal traveled approx 80 yards and laid down. One was a stomach hit, it slow walked 30 yards and laid down, and was shot when it got up as we approached. The last one was a one lung and liver hit. It took a couple of steps behind a bush and stood still, we moved left about 5 yards and was shot again.

Contrast that with two seasons ago, an elk had a poor hit with a 300PRC on the first or second shot, and out of 14 shots total was hit 3 times- once in the stomach, twice in the hips and stood there for over an hour as two of us went back to get another rifle because the shooter was out of ammo. When we returned almost an hour after the first hit, a 6mm ended it promptly. Does this mean that the 300PRC isn’t a capable elk cartridge? No, it means that poor hits are poor hits and this nonsense about a “bigger caliber” giving more room for error is a fallacy. Better bullets however, due give “more room for error” due to wider wound paths.

I tend to agree with you on this. I didn't keep a log book through the years. I did however evaluate bullet performance on most and have actually kept some pictures as it interested me. The only thing that really sticks out to me is I don't care for mono performance. Beyond that, the terminal performance of lead bullets designed to hold together is similar.

You are correct here with bullet performance. 100% that bullets such as heavy for caliber ELD-M and X, Berger VLD’s and TMK’s create much larger wounds and kill faster on average than any bonded or controlled expansion bullet does. And bonded lead core bullets such as Accubonds, Partitions, TLR, etc create wider wounds and kill faster than monos on average.

I personally believe the 30-06, and other similar or larger calibers, delivers more shock to the animal creating more reaction at impact. Many impacts by the larger caliber bullets on elk caused the elk to "freeze" and take a step backwards before stumbling a few yards and tipping over. Any quality lead bullet in the 150 grain + designed to hold together will create this reaction in most instances from my experience.

Again, this where projectile comes in. “Shock” is not a thing- tissue damage is. Caliber makes a bigger difference with controlled expansion bullets than it does with bullets that fragment part of their weight. There is a wound channel size difference that can be seen between a 6.5 with a monolithic bullet and a 30cal Accubond at like inpact velocities for instance. However, a 6.5 with a ELD-M creates a measurably larger wound than a 30cal Accubond at same.


A more accurate description is that the narrower a wound the bullet creates, the less the animals shows a reaction to the hit. The wider wound it creates, the more reaction it shows. The reaction an elk shows at 2,000fps impact velocity with a 30cal 215gr Berger and a 6mm with ELD-M is near identical- hunch up and either get shot again, or stand there and start swaying as blood pressure drops until they fall.

My go to is a 30-06 with 165 grain Interbond bullets.

I would be more selective with the 6.5 CM simply because I believe an elk will travel further with a vital hit than it would being hit with a larger caliber. I also believe that the caliber has about 10% less penetration capability than my current go to on extreme angle shots based on the various ballistics tests I have seen.

The wounds created by a 6.5 CM with the 140gr and 147gr ELD-M and 143gr ELD-X, 130gr TMK, 130gr and heavier Bergers, etc, are larger than the 165gr Interbond, and in most cases penetrates the same or deeper than the Interbond. There is no magic here- if two wound channels created are 4” wide and 16” deep, caliber is irrelevant- the wounds are identical and have the exact same effect on the exact same shots.

However, from my experiences, tissue damage is only part of the equation. Shock delivered to the animal plays a role in how fast that animal will be on the ground.

Ok, this is the crux of the disagreement it seems. Can we agree that something is only “real” when it can be measured, repeated and validated consistently? If so, please explain how and what “shock” is, how it is measured; and exactly how, when two wounds created are identical in the exact same spot- one applies “shock”?

 

[cuttingedge]

But you still bowhunt.......

Being schooled in rifle caliber ethics from a bowhunter is like getting a seatbelt ticket from a motorcycle cop.

Yes I do still bow hunt. In fact, I bow hunted for an entire month this past season. I could have killed deer at almost every sit. A couple decent bucks to boot. I never even drew my bow. I chose to watch, and not kill. Just because I hunt, and love it, doesn’t mean I have to kill. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter.

See, you don't know me, but you, like many others on impersonal open forums, feel the need to attack the commenter personally, instead of just sticking to the topic. I will not attack you personally, because I am better than you and I don't just spew BS or feel the need to beat my chest.

Thanks for your astute observation though.

 

[robtattoo]

Yes I do still bow hunt. In fact, I bow hunted for an entire month this past season. I could have killed deer at almost every sit. A couple decent bucks to boot. I never even drew my bow. I chose to watch, and not kill. Just because I hunt, and love it, doesn’t mean I have to kill. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter.

See, you don't know me, but you, like many others on impersonal open forums, feel the need to attack the commenter personally, instead of just sticking to the topic. I will not attack you personally, because I am better than you and I don't just spew BS or feel the need to beat my chest.

Thanks for your astute observation though.

Last derailment, honest injun......

Astute Observation:
I didn't actually 'attack' you at all. And you actually did attack me personally.

However, I've got thick enough skin for the pair of us, if you need to borrow some.

 

[fwafwow]

Yes I do still bow hunt. In fact, I bow hunted for an entire month this past season. I could have killed deer at almost every sit. A couple decent bucks to boot. I never even drew my bow. I chose to watch, and not kill. Just because I hunt, and love it, doesn’t mean I have to kill. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter.

See, you don't know me, but you, like many others on impersonal open forums, feel the need to attack the commenter personally, instead of just sticking to the topic. I will not attack you personally, because I am better than you and I don't just spew BS or feel the need to beat my chest.

Thanks for your astute observation though.

Let me back up and try to restate this tangential point differently. If you have no problem with the ethics of bow hunting, then we are in agreement. I’m also a bow hunter - although probably not as successful. I’m also a rifle hunter.

But I do think it is tough to square a view that bow hunting is ethical but that using a 6.5 CM is somehow not. Maybe that’s not what you intended, but that’s how it came across - at least to me.

 

[robtattoo]

Yep, me too.

 

[mt100gr.]

Yep, me too.

Admitted temporary derail: Rob!! You are really mixing it up with your profile picture lately!!! .....ethical concerns with the one before current, tho


Sorry all.

 

[robtattoo]

Admitted temporary derail: Rob!! You are really mixing it up with your profile picture lately!!! .....ethical concerns with the one before current, tho


Sorry all.

I gotta bit of a telling off for the last one. Justifiable.

 

[Unckebob]

Like you, I love my 6.5CM for whitetails. They are more than enough for the job, but not "too much." My rifle is very accurate which gives me a lot of confidence resulting in better shots by me.

If I could only have one rifle from the two, it would be the 30-06 because it could work with bigger game than deer.

Since I mostly hunt deer, the 6.5CM is the better choice for me.

As luck would have it, my dad gifted me his 30-06 today. Lots of white line spacers.

 

[woods89]

But you still bowhunt.......

Being schooled in rifle caliber ethics from a bowhunter is like getting a seatbelt ticket from a motorcycle cop.

Sig worthy........

 

[KenLee]

As luck would have it, my dad gifted me his 30-06 today. Lots of white line spacers.

View attachment 529369View attachment 529371

She's a looker!

 

[cuttingedge]

As luck would have it, my dad gifted me his 30-06 today. Lots of white line spacers.

View attachment 529369View attachment 529371

Great gun

 

[Stickmark]

I used that exact set up for four years.

 

[gerry35]

As luck would have it, my dad gifted me his 30-06 today. Lots of white line spacers.

View attachment 529369View attachment 529371

Love those older BDL's, bet it shoots lights out. Wish I had kept my 1990's LH BDL 30-06.

 

[cuttingedge]

Last derailment, honest injun......

Astute Observation:
I didn't actually 'attack' you at all. And you actually did attack me personally.

However, I've got thick enough skin for the pair of us, if you need to borrow some.

You made fun of me, so that kinda fits the bill of an attack. I just poked it back at you. Seems you don't care for it either. I didn't expect you would.

Look. I am not much of a killer anymore. I still hunt, and maybe I will take an elk, or a deer in the future? I won't know until I am presented with the circumstance. However, I do not have to kill to have a great time hunting. It is more about the experience and being in nature that I truly enjoy.

 

[cuttingedge]

Let me back up and try to restate this tangential point differently. If you have no problem with the ethics of bow hunting, then we are in agreement. I’m also a bow hunter - although probably not as successful. I’m also a rifle hunter.

But I do think it is tough to square a view that bow hunting is ethical but that using a 6.5 CM is somehow not. Maybe that’s not what you intended, but that’s how it came across - at least to me.

A lot of the deer I have killed with mechanical broadheads have been every bit as, or more "humane" as some I have killed with a muzzleloader or rifle. When the arrow goes through and the deer drops and expires in seconds, that is about as ethical as it gets.

And as I pretty plainly stated, the things I have talked about have been from my personal experiences. Take em with a grain of salt.

I have spent a lot of time in a treestand. One season I had almost 60 sits. I have seen a lot of stuff. I have shot a lot of deer. I wasn't born with hunting ethics, it's something I developed over years of hunting.

You gents and ladies can shoot deer with whatever you feel like. Personally. I put a lot of consideration into what the animal goes through. It is going to die if I decide to shoot. I do not want it to suffer. No one could ever convince me trying to humanely kill the animal is a bad thing. I don't want it to run 100 yards terrified. I want it dead right now. I try to use methods that accomplish this as effectively as possible, from my experiences.

 

[robtattoo]

You made fun of me, so that kinda fits the bill of an attack. I just poked it back at you. Seems you don't care for it either. I didn't expect you would.

Look. I am not much of a killer anymore. I still hunt, and maybe I will take an elk, or a deer in the future? I won't know until I am presented with the circumstance. However, I do not have to kill to have a great time hunting. It is more about the experience and being in nature that I truly enjoy.

I didn't though, did I.
I simply pointed out your oxymoron & equated it to another oxymoron. I neither belittled, nor made fun of you in any way.

But you're a better man than me, so I'm possibly wrong.

 

[General RE LEE]

This thread inspired me to load up some 178 grain ELD-X over 58.5 grains Ramshot Hunter for my dad’s 30-06.