6.5 creed vs 30-06

[ResearchinStuff]

#bmart

you're entitled to an an opinion on everything. my earlier post asked for a bunch of your opinions, which you did not answer, largely because the criteria you've chosen to evaluate on break when subjected to edge cases (arrows, large diameter very slow soft bullets, large diameter fast hard bullets).

Animals die when bullets destroy essential tissue, thus triggering a shutdown of the functions essential to life. So, questions about "what cartridge is adequate for X" are really poorly formed versions of the key question: does this bullet destroy enough tissue at my expected impact velocity to reliably kill this animal?

When it comes to answering the key question: the variables that have predictive utility are are the bullet design, bullet construction, and the impact velocity. That's the complete list of variables, regardless of how anyone feels about the situation.

The decisions that are made about how to deliver adequate tissue damage have more effect on the shooter (recoil, ammo cost, muzzle blast, flinching), than they do on the animal that dies either way once the tissue destruction threshold is satisfied.

 

[bmart2622]

Its pointless to give you my opinion because you will try and debate it which is something you cant do. You can save the explanations for someone else, I know very well how a bullet kills. In your prior post it seemed as though you were using the term bullet interchangeable with cartridge so I was trying to clarify that, and ironically, with that rambling you just did, you didn't clarify it. Shoot what you want, like what you want, have your opinions just remember that they are YOUR opinions and nobody elses and certainly arent always fact

 

[Laramie]

It would be interesting to know the different real world experiences on elk sized game people in these online debates have. I know some have a lot but I'm guessing some have very little if any.

I don't care what people hunt with but I will offer a differing opinion here and there because there are enough new elk hunters watching these debates trying to form opinions.

I am not a ballistics researcher nor am I am expert on terminal performance of the various caliber & bullet variations being discussed. I have however been elk hunting since the 80s and was also a guide for a lot of years. I have seen a pile of elk killed. I personally feel the 30-06 is a better choice for an elk hunt than a 6.5 CM IF the shooter can handle the recoil without compromising accuracy. I think hitting an elk with a heavier bullet, travelling at roughly the same or faster speed, results in a faster kill and a wider margin of error. Of course this is assuming similar bullet construction between the two. That stated, I wouldn't have any issue taking a 6.5 CM hunting for elk. I would however be a bit more selective when I sent a bullet...

 

[Lando]

If recoil is an issue with accuracy for you at all, I'd go with the 6.5.

 

[Formidilosus]

It would be interesting to know the different real world experiences on elk sized game people in these online debates have. I know some have a lot but I'm guessing some have very little if any.

I don't care what people hunt with but I will offer a differing opinion here and there because there are enough new elk hunters watching these debates trying to form opinions.

I would enjoy a real discussion if you will participate.

I am not a ballistics researcher nor am I am expert on terminal performance of the various caliber & bullet variations being discussed. I have however been elk hunting since the 80s and was also a guide for a lot of years.

I have seen a pile of elk killed.

Can you please list the elk killed with what calibers, what bullet, what impact velocity or range, and what were the reactions to these shots? I understand you probably won’t have all of them, but as many as possible.


The biggest issue with most is a severe lack of sufficient data/experience. For the guides I know that have seen a couple dozen elk killed, they don’t know enough about terminal ballistics to evaluate bullet performance, and very few even know what bullet was used. They know “cartridge”, which the cartridge is immaterial to the wound created. Bullet, and impact velocity.

I personally feel the 30-06 is a better choice for an elk hunt than a 6.5 CM IF the shooter can handle the recoil without compromising accuracy. I think hitting an elk with a heavier bullet, travelling at roughly the same or faster speed, results in a faster kill and a wider margin of error.

I know we have had this back and forth before, however- what part of the 30-06 actually makes it “better”? What is it doing to tissue that a 6.5 isn’t? AND with what bullets?


Also, what is your current go to elk rifle, what bullet and to what ranges? What is your second for all of those?

Of course this is assuming similar bullet construction between the two. That stated, I wouldn't have any issue taking a 6.5 CM hunting for elk. I would however be a bit more selective when I sent a bullet...

Why would you be more selective and what bullet would you use with a 6.5?

 

[MallardSX2]

30-06 will always rule.

 

[Bluefish]

The 6.5 cm was designed to punch paper and hit steel at long ranges by using high bc bullets in a short action. The 30-06 was a early 1900 battle rifle cartridge. Case volume of the cm is a bit lower than the 06 and thus will never be able to launch bullets as fast.
In the end, it comes down to how much recoil you want vs how much energy on target. Both will kill a deer sized animal no problem and even take larger game with correct bullet placement.
I laugh as all the gun shops around have lots on 6.5cm rifles and ammo, yet its not a deer legal cartridge in Iowa. So you either long range shoot or hunt coyotes or go out of state to use it. Hardly any 30-06 rifles on hand although ammo is readily available.

 

[robtattoo]

Imm just slip this on in here.....

6.5cm is the autistic little brother to the 6.5x55.

.30-06 is a parade-gay downgrade from the .35 Whelen.

There y'go.

 

[Laramie]

I would enjoy a real discussion if you will participate.

I respect your opinion and your knowledge. I personally believe you are one of the guys who does have significant experience. I'm headed out of town right now but will participate. Give me a couple days.

 

[Stickmark]

looking forward this above conversation

 

[Formidilosus]

I respect your opinion and your knowledge. I personally believe you are one of the guys who does have significant experience. I'm headed out of town right now but will participate. Give me a couple days.

Thank you sir.

 

[Lwarner03]

30-06 will always rule.

You forgot to account for the percentage of shots taken one-handed, behind the back, blindfolded at 1000 yards where 6.5 Creedmoor hits the bull 60% of the time, every time.

Other than that you’re probably right.

 

[BarCO]

You forgot to account for the percentage of shots taken one-handed, behind the back, blindfolded at 1000 yards where 6.5 Creedmoor hits the bull 60% of the time, every time.

Other than that you’re probably right.

Poor execution of humor aside , certainly doesn’t have to be a creedmoor, plenty of overlooked less overcompensating rifle drop an elk just as well.

 

[ztc92]

Though this thread has gone the same direction as most other caliber debates on Rokslide, there is one key point that has not been highlighted yet that I’d like to mention.

Something that is often overlooked is the importance of practicing with the rifle you intend to hunt with. I suspect most Roksliders would agree that archery hunters have a responsibility to practice with their equipment to ensure they make a good, ethical shot if they intend to bow hunt. For most, this would be something like shooting their bow a few times a week at a variety of ranges and from a variety of positions/angles they may encounter while hunting. Yet for some reason this concept rarely translates to hunting with a rifle. I used to be guilty of this myself, just shooing a few rounds each fall to confirm my zero before the season, but once someone made the comparison to archery hunting it changed how I think about rifle hunting forever.

Given the 6.5CM and the 30-06 are both more than adequate for deer out to 600+ yards (assuming proper bullet and a shooter who can make that shot, which is rare), for me this is the primary reason to choose the 6.5CM over the 30-06. Not only is ammo more available and more affordable for the 6.5CM, but thanks to the light recoil, you’re far more likely to enjoy practicing with it.

Another point that has not been discussed is that beyond 300 yards, most shooters tend to miss due to windage far more than elevation. This both highlights the importance of practicing extensively with your hunting rifle in hunting-type conditions/ranges but also explains why the higher BC bullets of the 6.5CM are more desirable at longer ranges, since they deflect less due to wind.

I don’t actually own a 6.5CM or a 30-06 (yet) but hope to buy a 6.5CM later this year. In the mean time, I bought a fast twist .223 to practice with and after seeing how much an affordable, low-recoiling cartridge improved my shooting ability, I will likely never go back to expensive, heavy recoiling cartridges because I know I won’t practice with them enough to be proficient.

 

[Boonie327]

Many things to consider matter more than frontal diameter, energy and other things that we’ve been told by guys like Boddington and Spomer. No disrespect to them, but you can’t put numbers on modern bullet design, shot placement, recoil, how many shots the shooter fires each year, etc. No one is going to convince an -06 believer otherwise, but both of those cartridges with decent bullets will kill just about anything you put in front of it. I kind of think at this point you just have to walk away and not wade into the mud when someone mentions wwII, their grandpa, energy, what their guide says, and especially if they spell it creedmore.

Let’s face it…the single biggest factor is bullet selection and distance in combination with the number of shots people put down range every year. Guys killing stuff at 600 yards with a 6mm and putting thousands of rounds downrange each year likely aren’t going to be able to have a meaningful conversation about this topic with someone that shoots their -06 a few times a year and never past 400 yards. I’m neither of those guys so I can sit back and watch the dead horse getting beaten deader and deader .

 

[ACHILLES]

Not trying to start a war but if yall have to pick one, which would it be? Rifles weigh the same and you can handload for both. Which is getting the nod for back country deer ( out to 600 )?

What a shit show of opinions, experiences, random theory’s, and unrelated content. I believe 5 year olds could have a more mature discussion arguing the merits of BB guns vs pellet guns haha.

I hand load for the 30/06 (185s-215s) and 6.5 creedmoor (120s-140s) and have killed a lot of deer and hogs with both.

Simple answer, out to 600 yards 6.5creed is plenty if you put your shot in the vitals imo. Easier to spot your shots on solo backcountry hunts. 30/06 is fine to but will have more recoil. 30/06 would make more sense if you were hunting elk or in an area with big bears and you didn’t carry a handgun.

 

[ORJoe]

Energy is what kills an elk if you compare hitting it with a car vs a truck vs a train. Those projectiles transfer their energy to the elk and kill it by traumatizing all of the tissue at once, accelerating the body and breaking its neck, or accelerating the entire animal and bashing its little elk brain inside of its skull.

Bullets kill elk by cutting holes through it so that air gets to where blood should be, or blood gets where air should be, or the heart that moves blood around gets broken, or the heart loses contact with the brain and forgets its job and quits working.

Mass and velocity are two of the factors in how well a bullet will penetrate and cut holes. The sectional density (a function of mass and diameter, smaller diameter is better) and bullet construction are two others. You can ignore those and calculate energy if you want, but it doesn't tell you anything useful.

A .243 108gr Berger Hunter and a .308 110gr Vmax hit some big game animal at the same speed. Being the same speed and the same mass, they have the same energy.
Do you think these two bullets are equal in their ability to kill that animal? Or is there maybe more to it than energy?

 

[Szwampdonkey]

Ok smart a$s... just watch! Karma's gonna EFF with YOU now for making light of Bell's Palsy by way of Skull Fx of another person.

Lighten up you little buttercup.

 

[oldskool67]

The 6.5 CM is better for women and children to shoot

 

[CMP70306]

So as someone who went from a 30-06 to an 18” 6.5 PRC for whitetails we have noticed a couple key differences between the two. Long story short we started using suppressors and mono metal bullets, specifically Hammers, along with the change to the 6.5 PRC and aren’t 100% sure what is the biggest contributor.

With the 6.5 PRC it seems like the deer don’t react the same way as when they are hit with the .30-06. Our group hunted for decades with the 150gr bullets in the 30-06, if you hit a deer out of a group the one hit would run away from the group tail down. That doesn’t seem to happen with the 6.5 PRC, the deer run tail up with the group like they weren’t even hit until they fall over dead.

Additionally the deer tend to run farther and with less of a blood trail compared to the 30-06, we are used to 20 or 30 yard tracks with heavy wide blood trails but the deer killed with the PRC seem to make it significantly farther, sometimes over 100 yards, with just a small or no blood trail to follow. It’s not like they aren’t doing damage, below is the buck I shot at 150 yards with my PRC, he still made it over 100 yards after the shot.



Hit just behind the shoulder on the left side and exited the last rib on the right. I didn’t see where he went down but on his death run he crossed a logging road and I took note of where he crossed. I walked up and down that road with no blood and only found him when I I walked towards a tree I noted he might have run past. This was based on movement through the trees and the fact that I had a buck the year before do the almost identical thing except he was father out the ridge and died before the logging road where I could see him drop.

In my experience with the 30-06 a hit like that would have folded him up in significantly less time with a much better blood trail. So this year I’m going to give it a test, I have a 20” 30-06 that I can suppress and will load up with Hammers to put to bed the issue of what is causing such a difference. If it still happens with the 06 then I’ll switch back to lead and see if that makes a difference.