308 vs. 30-06 under 400 yards

[Lock3]

The ONLY things that matter are bullet construction and impact velocity. That should be your only concern. And you basically have a constant bullet construction with using copper. So at the end of the day, you only need to focus on your impact velocity. I crunched a few numbers and 308 velocities are on the edge of your minimal expansion threshold at 400 yards.

Do you have a specific 130-165gr bullet or factory offering in mind that you prefer to use?

Federal Trophy Copper 165 grain is what I've been using for 308.

 

[Pilsner]

Does velocity matter more than ft/lbs of energy for stopping power? I always though the latter was more important, which is why I was considering 30-06. There's a lot more retained energy in a 180 grain copper 06 bullet than 165 grain copper 308.

*Heavy sigh*
Stopping power is a BS thing made up so outdoor writers can argue about something other than 7mm VS 30 cal and 9mm VS 45.
I've shot several truck loads of deer and pigs with both rounds and the only difference was recoil on my end and the hit on my wallet. The critters never voiced an opinion because they were all equally dead.
* edit to say that I've only used mono's in the last few years so 90+% of my experiences might not be a one to one comparison*
What is the furthest shot that you are going to take at game? You prolly said but if so I missed it.
And it seems like it's going to be deer and pigs mainly with elk as a "maybe later" proposition, correct?
Based on your state mandated limitations I'd go with a 6mm like a 6-creed driving Barnes mono's as fast as possible for everything including elk.

 

[Lock3]

*Heavy sigh*
Stopping power is a BS thing made up so outdoor writers can argue about something other than 7mm VS 30 cal and 9mm VS 45.
I've shot several truck loads of deer and pigs with both rounds and the only difference was recoil on my end and the hit on my wallet. The critters never voiced an opinion because they were all equally dead.
* edit to say that I've only used mono's in the last few years so 90+% of my experiences might not be a one to one comparison*
What is the furthest shot that you are going to take at game? You prolly said but if so I missed it.
And it seems like it's going to be deer and pigs mainly with elk as a "maybe later" proposition, correct?
Based on your state mandated limitations I'd go with a 6mm like a 6-creed driving Barnes mono's as fast as possible for everything including elk.

Inside of 400 yards ethically. I can shoot out to 600 comfortably prone or from a bench but I don't trust myself with wind calls at that distance / I very rarely have the opportunity in the field to shoot prone. Either way, I don't think either of these rounds will retain enough energy at 500-600 to reliably open (as people have been telling me).

I will also be going for black bear since they're honestly probably easier to find than deer where I am in California. Have a tag for that too.

I'm not worried about elk with this gun. I will buy a 300 Win Mag or 300 PRC when I plan a trip for Elk. I've done the whole one-size-fits-all in too many other hobbies and I know that trying to get a jack-of-all-trades option means I just end up buying more stuff so I'm going to avoid the problem entirely.

My initial question was honestly if there was a "stopping power" difference between a 165 gr trophy copper 308 vs. a 180 grain 30-06 trophy copper round (both federal). I just know if I don't drop it and it runs more than 50 yards, I will likely have a problem with retrieval given the terrain (v. steep / heavy brush). If it's the same between the two, I'd just stick with 308 so I don't have to buy diff ammo since this isn't going to be an elk gun.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

I have a 30-06 130gr TTSX load that does 3100fps at Barnes book max. It's basically turned it into a 270 and is ripping fast. My 308 with the same weight bullet won't go above about 2900. If you shoot monos, you want the speed. They don't lose weight so you can shoot at 130 and it will be equivalent to about a 150-165 gr. 30 cal bullet.

When you shoot copper, you need to disregard traditional advice on bullet weight and shoot lighter/faster. Copper does not shed weight as it penetrates so the standard advice does not apply. You want to be going really fast on impact.

At 3100fps, the Barnes 130gr ttsx has an impact speed just above 2200fps at 300 and just above 2000fps at 400 which I'd say is absolute max range for the copper. So for your hunting ranges, the 30-06 with copper may be the ticket. I would try to keep monos at 2200fps impact if possible. Disregard minimums stated by Barnes as they will barely open.

Perfection

 

[The Guide]

Federal Trophy Copper 165 grain is what I've been using for 308.

I would go with the 30-06 in your specific case. The 30-06 will drive a 150 grain monolithic bullet at a speed that will still give you good (for monolithic) expansion at 400 yards and will work further than that in states with no restrictions on bullets. If you are wanting to go further then I think you getting a 6.5 PRC is the right direction. You will get less recoil than the 30-06, better trajectory, and excellent terminal performance.

Jay

 

[Taudisio]

Federal Trophy Copper 165 grain is what I've been using for 308.

IF, and that’s a big IF, you get their posted muzzle velocity, you should be fine out to 400 yards. The 150gr version maintains a higher velocity at 400 yards over the 165 by 50fps. Assuming their calculations are at sea level, you should be doing a little better in the mountains. Just based on their posted information, the 150gr should do better.

I took a peek at their 120gr 6.5 creedmoor offering. It would gain you an extra 100 yards and less recoil over the 308, passing the 165gr 30-06 velocity between 400 and 500 yards. The 6.5 prc should reliably expand out to 600y.
Food for thought.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

Do you handload? You will get wound channels with Hammer, Lehigh, Cutting Edge fragmenting monos. Cutting Edge has some pretty decent BC’s which will help extend your terminal range.

 

[Steve300xcw]

I just know if I don't drop it and it runs more than 50 yards, I will likely have a problem with retrieval given the terrain (v. steep / heavy brush). If it's the same between the two, I'd just stick with 308 so I don't have to buy diff ammo since this isn't going to be an elk gun.

Are you a behind the shoulder shooter?

 

[blackwood]

.308 will be the staple for many decades to come so it will stay cheap and abundant. It's shorter action so you can get lighter rifle as well. 30-06 is more powerful but that difference is what that bullet loses in 30 meters of flight (meaning 308 at 100 meters is the same as 30-06 at 130 meters).

Just get .308 unless you want something more powerful then think about .300win mag.

 

[TaperPin]

Everyone should own at least one 30-06. Will a deer know the difference between that and a 308, probably not. Will the same deer know the difference between 180s or 165s? Like many well thought of cartridges in this middle range, you can’t make a wrong decision, and animals aren’t going to show a huge difference in reaction when hit. It’s fun experiencing things first hand so do what interests you. If you don’t reload, keep in mind factory ‘06 ammo is loaded to a slightly lower pressure than 308, so the velocity gain isn’t as much as reloaders can coax out of it.

 

[sdupontjr]

Optic will affect your weight as well. I have a 20" CTR 308 and a T3 Lite 308. The CTR went on a diet, removed the original stock (which weighs more than regular tikka stock), removed the rail and put a trijicon tenmile 4-24x50 on it. My T3 Lite is my low light setup. I have a Mountian Tactical rail with vortex precision matched rings with a Schmidt Bender Polar T96. Honestly, I can't hardly tell the difference in the 2 in carrying them.

 

[Pilsner]

Are you a behind the shoulder shooter?

Sounds to me like he needs to become a high shoulder shooter if he isnt already. Although I dont have much experience with that shot using monos...

 

[Steve300xcw]

Sounds to me like he needs to become a high shoulder shooter if he isnt already.

Kinda what I was getting at. Take out the running gear and or CNS and things just dont go all that far if any.

 

[Macintosh]

Depending on altitude 400 yards is really pushing it with a traditional copper mono regardless of 308 or 3006, unless maybe you handload. Mine run out of expansion velocity around 350 yards (manufacturers recommended minimum velocity +10%). Since cheap practice ammo was your rationale, I would say go to a 6.5cm—the ammo is as-cheap as 308 and almost as plentiful, and the recoil for practice in a lighter hunting rifle is much nicer. Plus something like a barnes LRX will carry velocity enough for a mono to expand at least as well as a 3006, and better than a 308.
Ive never used them but one of the fragmenting non-lead bullets (drt, etc) might be worth looking into if you truly want every inch of the 400 yards.

 

[Bluumoon]

Here. I’ll save you some time. Bullet terminal performance is covered extensively in the match bullet for hunting thread.

B

Thread 'Compilation of Formidilosus posts'

Apr 16, 2022

Hopefully this doesn't step on any toes. I've found Form’s posts to be incredibly useful and have spent more time than I care to admit digging through his posts. Attached are a few of the "core" posts I have saved for reference and to share with friends. To be clear, this is all Form’s content, some is older work and views may have progressed

@Formidilosus Thank you! If you have put all this in a book/website/ program let me know and I'll buy it. If not, you have a heck of a start, sign me up when you do. If the post violates decorum, please let me know and I'll happily delete...

• Bluumoon
• Replies: 59
• Forum: Firearms

• 

 

[Lock3]

Sounds to me like he needs to become a high shoulder shooter if he isnt already. Although I dont have much experience with that shot using monos...

Behind the shoulder. Gives me a little more room for error.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Behind the shoulder. Gives me a little more room for error.

For a guy worried about how far an animal will go. There are way better spots to hit an animal.

 

[Pilsner]

Behind the shoulder. Gives me a little more room for error.

and zero reason for the BANG! FLOP! that you desire. Pick one - room for error or Bang!Flop! because you rarely get both in my experience.
Since mono's require more resistance to innate expansion, the behind the shoulder shot is about the worst shot that you could take with that bullet and still be hitting the right organs. The behind the shoulder shot was hammered into us during the era of soft cast lead bullets and cup-and-core bullets. Different bullet, different situation, different point of aim required.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Nobody is saying to brain them..even though that does work rather well.

But a guy shooting 400 rounds a month, oughta be able to break some shoulders without trying to hard.

 

[Pilsner]

Nobody is saying to brain them..even though that does work rather well.

But a guy shooting 400 rounds a month, oughta be able to break some shoulders without trying to hard.

Amen and if you need that much margin for error then it's time to get closer and/or practice more or both.
To be fair when the OP stated that he would need to buy a 300 WM or 300 PRC for elk we knew what mindset the OP came from. I recognize it because it was me not many years back.