6.5 creed vs 30-06

[CMP70306]

So as someone who went from a 30-06 to an 18” 6.5 PRC for whitetails we have noticed a couple key differences between the two. Long story short we started using suppressors and mono metal bullets, specifically Hammers, along with the change to the 6.5 PRC and aren’t 100% sure what is the biggest contributor.

With the 6.5 PRC it seems like the deer don’t react the same way as when they are hit with the .30-06. Our group hunted for decades with the 150gr bullets in the 30-06, if you hit a deer out of a group the one hit would run away from the group tail down. That doesn’t seem to happen with the 6.5 PRC, the deer run tail up with the group like they weren’t even hit until they fall over dead.

Additionally the deer tend to run farther and with less of a blood trail compared to the 30-06, we are used to 20 or 30 yard tracks with heavy wide blood trails but the deer killed with the PRC seem to make it significantly farther, sometimes over 100 yards, with just a small or no blood trail to follow. It’s not like they aren’t doing damage, below is the buck I shot at 150 yards with my PRC, he still made it over 100 yards after the shot.



Hit just behind the shoulder on the left side and exited the last rib on the right. I didn’t see where he went down but on his death run he crossed a logging road and I took note of where he crossed. I walked up and down that road with no blood and only found him when I I walked towards a tree I noted he might have run past. This was based on movement through the trees and the fact that I had a buck the year before do the almost identical thing except he was father out the ridge and died before the logging road where I could see him drop.

In my experience with the 30-06 a hit like that would have folded him up in significantly less time with a much better blood trail. So this year I’m going to give it a test, I have a 20” 30-06 that I can suppress and will load up with Hammers to put to bed the issue of what is causing such a difference. If it still happens with the 06 then I’ll switch back to lead and see if that makes a difference.

 

[TxxAgg]

So as someone who went from a 30-06 to an 18” 6.5 PRC for whitetails we have noticed a couple key differences between the two. Long story short we started using suppressors and mono metal bullets, specifically Hammers, along with the change to the 6.5 PRC and aren’t 100% sure what is the biggest contributor.

With the 6.5 PRC it seems like the deer don’t react the same way as when they are hit with the .30-06. Our group hunted for decades with the 150gr bullets in the 30-06, if you hit a deer out of a group the one hit would run away from the group tail down. That doesn’t seem to happen with the 6.5 PRC, the deer run tail up with the group like they weren’t even hit until they fall over dead.

Additionally the deer tend to run farther and with less of a blood trail compared to the 30-06, we are used to 20 or 30 yard tracks with heavy wide blood trails but the deer killed with the PRC seem to make it significantly farther, sometimes over 100 yards, with just a small or no blood trail to follow. It’s not like they aren’t doing damage, below is the buck I shot at 150 yards with my PRC, he still made it over 100 yards after the shot.

View attachment 527110

Hit just behind the shoulder on the left side and exited the last rib on the right. I didn’t see where he went down but on his death run he crossed a logging road and I took note of where he crossed. I walked up and down that road with no blood and only found him when I I walked towards a tree I noted he might have run past. This was based on movement through the trees and the fact that I had a buck the year before do the almost identical thing except he was father out the ridge and died before the logging road where I could see him drop.

In my experience with the 30-06 a hit like that would have folded him up in significantly less time with a much better blood trail. So this year I’m going to give it a test, I have a 20” 30-06 that I can suppress and will load up with Hammers to put to bed the issue of what is causing such a difference. If it still happens with the 06 then I’ll switch back to lead and see if that makes a difference.

The issue is the mono bullets not the cartridge.

 

[eamyrick]

The issue is the mono bullets not the cartridge.

100% agree. I hunted my entire life with 30-06 150g Hornandy ssts. Every deer was bang flop. I switched to TTSX because I’m not a big fan of chewing on the lead explosion that an SST causes and have yet to have a deer immediately fold up, even though none went over 65 yards. (Multiple Mule deer and Whitetail bucks). I did shoot at a bear this year at 415 with an TTSX and got a reaction but zero blood. It was near dark and raining and I never recovered the bear. I’ll never be sure if I hit the bear. For quick killing the SST works better in my experience.

 

[CMP70306]

The issue is the mono bullets not the cartridge.

100% agree. I hunted my entire life with 30-06 150g Hornandy ssts. Every deer was bang flop. I switched to TTSX because I’m not a big fan of chewing on the lead explosion that an SST causes and have yet to have a deer immediately fold up, even though none went over 65 yards. (Multiple Mule deer and Whitetail bucks). I did shoot at a bear this year at 415 with an TTSX and got a reaction but zero blood. It was near dark and raining and I never recovered the bear. I’ll never be sure if I hit the bear. For quick killing the SST works better in my experience.

SST was our bullet of choice as well, I went to the Monos with the PRC as my original barrel was a 24” and I was concerned the 143 ELDx would come apart at 3000 fps based on the expansion I got on deer with it at 2600 fps out of a Creed. I could get the 123gr Hammers up to 3375 which made for some flat shooting but they didn’t react despite the large amount of damage done to the lungs and heart when they were hit. Frontal chest and offside shoulder hits were the only ones I had drop, anything lung was making a run for it.

My dad likes his little suppressed PRC but was less than thrilled at the drop off in performance compared to the 30-06 he’s used since the 80’s. This year I’m going to load him up with either the 123gr SST or the 143gr ELDX depending on the speed and which one shoots better. Hopefully that will give him the performance he is used too.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

try the 147 eldm or the 156 berger.

 

[cuttingedge]

I've hunted mostly whitetail mostly with .308 and 30-06. I would carry the .308 if I didn't mind a bit of tracking. I carried the 30-06 when I only wanted to track them 1.5 feet straight down. True story

 

[87TT]

I have a 30 06 that has always worked since I bought it in 1978, so I have no need to change.

 

[CMP70306]

try the 147 eldm or the 156 berger.

I have some 156’s I could try though I’m not sure they would work well in the 18” as they would only be going around 2600 to 2700 or so. I’ve relegated the 24” onto a target rifle so that is going to be fed either the Berger 130gr OTM or the 153.5.

The 147s tend to blow up in fast twist PRCs so I’ve stayed away from them and went with the 153.5 and 156 Bergers for my heavy for caliber 6.5s.

 

[bojangles808]

i got both ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ feel like i got pretty much everything covered now

 

[deerhunter628]

SST was our bullet of choice as well, I went to the Monos with the PRC as my original barrel was a 24” and I was concerned the 143 ELDx would come apart at 3000 fps based on the expansion I got on deer with it at 2600 fps out of a Creed. I could get the 123gr Hammers up to 3375 which made for some flat shooting but they didn’t react despite the large amount of damage done to the lungs and heart when they were hit. Frontal chest and offside shoulder hits were the only ones I had drop, anything lung was making a run for it.

My dad likes his little suppressed PRC but was less than thrilled at the drop off in performance compared to the 30-06 he’s used since the 80’s. This year I’m going to load him up with either the 123gr SST or the 143gr ELDX depending on the speed and which one shoots better. Hopefully that will give him the performance he is used too.

I used hammer bullets a couple years ago in my 308. I shot a medium whitetail at about 100 yards. The bullet did kill the deer but it ran about 60 yards with very little blood trail in a good vitals shot. I quit using hammer bullets.

 

[Laramie]

I would enjoy a real discussion if you will participate.




Can you please list the elk killed with what calibers, what bullet, what impact velocity or range, and what were the reactions to these shots? I understand you probably won’t have all of them, but as many as possible.

As close as I can remember, I have been a part of 73 elk kills that were either me as the shooter or someone in my immediate vicinity. Most have been inside of 300 yards. As far as calibers, only a few stand out and those were the "extremes" to me or the ones that went bad. The smallest was a .243 on 3 different occasions. The largest was a 30-378. I do not have an accurate record of the actual bullets used but it was common practice in our camps to ensure clients were using a "suitable" elk bullet. Of the 73, 3 elk were not recovered in time to salvage the meat. One with a .243, one with a 25-06 and one with a 300mag. The .243 and the 25-06 were vital hits that passed through but the elk were able to travel far enough to prevent us from finding them in a timely manner. The 300 hit was in a non-vital area.

As far as reactions, most elk hit with medium through heavy calibers reacted similarly to double lung hits. They showed immediate reaction and were down in a relatively short distance. A decent percentage of the elk hit with lighter calibers showed virtually no reaction when hit through both lungs. Most of those died in a reasonable distance to make recovery uncomplicated.

The biggest issue with most is a severe lack of sufficient data/experience. For the guides I know that have seen a couple dozen elk killed, they don’t know enough about terminal ballistics to evaluate bullet performance, and very few even know what bullet was used. They know “cartridge”, which the cartridge is immaterial to the wound created. Bullet, and impact velocity.

I tend to agree with you on this. I didn't keep a log book through the years. I did however evaluate bullet performance on most and have actually kept some pictures as it interested me. The only thing that really sticks out to me is I don't care for mono performance. Beyond that, the terminal performance of lead bullets designed to hold together is similar. Nosler partitions left 2 exit holes on many elk as it was common for the nose to separate from the base. Most bonded performed very similarly leaving a 3x - 4x exit on most. The only thing I remember caliber wise was smaller calibers left smaller holes.

I know we have had this back and forth before, however- what part of the 30-06 actually makes it “better”? What is it doing to tissue that a 6.5 isn’t? AND with what bullets?

I personally believe the 30-06, and other similar or larger calibers, delivers more shock to the animal creating more reaction at impact. Many impacts by the larger caliber bullets on elk caused the elk to "freeze" and take a step backwards before stumbling a few yards and tipping over. Any quality lead bullet in the 150 grain + designed to hold together will create this reaction in most instances from my experience.

Also, what is your current go to elk rifle, what bullet and to what ranges? What is your second for all of those?

My go to is a 30-06 with 165 grain Interbond bullets.

Why would you be more selective and what bullet would you use with a 6.5?

I would be more selective with the 6.5 CM simply because I believe an elk will travel further with a vital hit than it would being hit with a larger caliber. I also believe that the caliber has about 10% less penetration capability than my current go to on extreme angle shots based on the various ballistics tests I have seen.



I believe I understand your stance and don't disagree with it. Modern bullets designs have significantly increased smaller caliber capabilities. Actual tissue damage is extremely impressive from some of the little bullets out there as shown in the .223 thread. However, from my experiences, tissue damage is only part of the equation. Shock delivered to the animal plays a role in how fast that animal will be on the ground. In most instances it doesn't matter if an elk dies in 20 yards or 100+ yards. In some cases it makes a huge difference.

 

[kboatman107]

Where exactly does the 6.5 cm beat the 30-06 in velocity or energy?

6.5 CM 143 grain
View attachment 524614

30-06 165 grain
View attachment 524616

Top is my 6.5 cm and bottom is my 3006

 

[ElkArcher918]

Apples versus oranges. Based on versatility, '06 all day always.

 

[Laramie]

View attachment 528093View attachment 528094
Top is my 6.5 cm and bottom is my 3006

What load in your 30-06? Those are terrible numbers for standard grain bullets from a 30-06. My setup is 2940 velocity with 165 grain bullets. Your 2680 would even be slow for a Hornady factory 165 grain .308.

 

[robtattoo]

As close as I can remember, I have been a part of 73 elk kills that were either me as the shooter or someone in my immediate vicinity. Most have been inside of 300 yards. As far as calibers, only a few stand out and those were the "extremes" to me or the ones that went bad. The smallest was a .243 on 3 different occasions. The largest was a 30-378. I do not have an accurate record of the actual bullets used but it was common practice in our camps to ensure clients were using a "suitable" elk bullet. Of the 73, 3 elk were not recovered in time to salvage the meat. One with a .243, one with a 25-06 and one with a 300mag. The .243 and the 25-06 were vital hits that passed through but the elk were able to travel far enough to prevent us from finding them in a timely manner. The 300 hit was in a non-vital area.

As far as reactions, most elk hit with medium through heavy calibers reacted similarly to double lung hits. They showed immediate reaction and were down in a relatively short distance. A decent percentage of the elk hit with lighter calibers showed virtually no reaction when hit through both lungs. Most of those died in a reasonable distance to make recovery uncomplicated.



I tend to agree with you on this. I didn't keep a log book through the years. I did however evaluate bullet performance on most and have actually kept some pictures as it interested me. The only thing that really sticks out to me is I don't care for mono performance. Beyond that, the terminal performance of lead bullets designed to hold together is similar. Nosler partitions left 2 exit holes on many elk as it was common for the nose to separate from the base. Most bonded performed very similarly leaving a 3x - 4x exit on most. The only thing I remember caliber wise was smaller calibers left smaller holes.



I personally believe the 30-06, and other similar or larger calibers, delivers more shock to the animal creating more reaction at impact. Many impacts by the larger caliber bullets on elk caused the elk to "freeze" and take a step backwards before stumbling a few yards and tipping over. Any quality lead bullet in the 150 grain + designed to hold together will create this reaction in most instances from my experience.



My go to is a 30-06 with 165 grain Interbond bullets.



I would be more selective with the 6.5 CM simply because I believe an elk will travel further with a vital hit than it would being hit with a larger caliber. I also believe that the caliber has about 10% less penetration capability than my current go to on extreme angle shots based on the various ballistics tests I have seen.



I believe I understand your stance and don't disagree with it. Modern bullets designs have significantly increased smaller caliber capabilities. Actual tissue damage is extremely impressive from some of the little bullets out there as shown in the .223 thread. However, from my experiences, tissue damage is only part of the equation. Shock delivered to the animal plays a role in how fast that animal will be on the ground. In most instances it doesn't matter if an elk dies in 20 yards or 100+ yards. In some cases it makes a huge difference.

I honestly think this is one of the most well thought out, experienced & well formulated replies in the entire thread.

 

[kboatman107]

What load in your 30-06? Those are terrible numbers for standard grain bullets from a 30-06. My setup is 2940 velocity with 165 grain bullets. Your 2680 would even be slow for a Hornady factory 165 grain .308.

It’s a mid load of 4064 shooting SST. I have another load shooting 208s that smokes the 6.5 in energy but that wouldn’t of worked good with my argument

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

I suppose it all depends on whether you pee sitting down or standing up

Kidding

I shoot 30-06 because I mainly hunt elk. I live in GA, and while I don’t hunt deer, if I did I would likely go 6.5 CM, 7mm-08, .270 or something similarly more tame in the recoil department. I like my 30-06 and am acclimated to it, but it’s a lot of extra recoil that can be murder on the shoulder at the range.

I was a 30-06 guy and still own one. My last two moose were killed with a 6.5cm though.

I like both. But prefer shooting that 6.5

 

[pirogue]

I wouldn’t buy either of those calibers, but if my family members needed a rifle, and the ought 6 or 6.5c was all I could get…..30-06 for my sons, and the Creed for my petite wife, and feeble mom.

 

[General RE LEE]

I’ve started to value spotting the hit in the scope. I’ve become a big fan of the 6.5 Creedmoor and I’ve never lost a whitetail deer with the caliber. I’ve also not made a bad hit with the 6.5 Creedmoor yet. My Tikka CTR 6.5 Creedmoor with hand loads is my most accurate rifle.

 

[Unckebob]

I’ve started to value spotting the hit in the scope. I’ve become a big fan of the 6.5 Creedmoor and I’ve never lost a whitetail deer with the caliber. I’ve also not made a bad hit with the 6.5 Creedmoor yet. My Tikka CTR 6.5 Creedmoor with hand loads is my most accurate rifle.

Like you, I love my 6.5CM for whitetails. They are more than enough for the job, but not "too much." My rifle is very accurate which gives me a lot of confidence resulting in better shots by me.

If I could only have one rifle from the two, it would be the 30-06 because it could work with bigger game than deer.

Since I mostly hunt deer, the 6.5CM is the better choice for me.