300 wsm build for european games, selective hunting in Italy

[madcalfe]

I'm bias and will say 300wsm. I've used one for the last 12 years. I've only used a 300wsm and currently running a custom 300wsm.
ive owend a tikka in 300wsm
Christensen arms ridgeline 300wsm
and now currently have a full custom 20" 300wsm
the tikka wasn't pleasant to shoot mainly due to the stock but once you add a brake its like shooting a .243
personally id say go with a tikka. get barrel chopped to 20" add a break and limbsaver recoil pad.
down the road buy a aftermarket stock.
you'll have a light compact 300wsm that will be good to take any of the animals you've listed out for 750+ yards.
I've used 180 accubonds in all my 300wsm I've killed everything from deer, bears, elk, mountain goats.
When I go sheep hunting I use 178gr ELDX's, now i wouldn't recommend this bullet to shoot at things within 100 yards I've had mixed expierences with them at shorter ranges but anything over that 200yard mark they work wonders.

 

[ssimo]

I thought we were really discussing your next rifle and appropriate hunting bullets

And you were right! Now i am not sure about the caliber anymore tough. I was thinking the bigger i can shoot well, the better for ballistic (external and terminal) but if almost everyone is suggesting me to adopt a smaller caliber there must be a reason but i don't get it! The only caliber that would obviously fits me better would be the 7 rem mag but i like training with my hunting rifles and I think it's important and those 7 mag just seem to have a too short barrel life! If I shoot 200 rounds per year in half a decade i am gonna trash that rifle (in italy replacing barrels isn't easy and there are also law implications). 300 wsm with its 2000 rds barrel life (if taken care of) seems more reasonable. When you cross 3000 fps barrels seem to get wear much faster! So the 300 wsm seemed to be a good choice with the possibility to reach even further than 500 yards if I wanted to and the possibility to take down bigger games if i wanted to do an exotic hunt in the future (caribou/moose/red deer/african games). But i don't get why everyone is recommending against 300 wsm. I thought a deer can't be too dead and shooting in the ribs animals should not just explode.. the only thing that I really don't like is the need to use a muzzlbrake and consequently earing protections. But i do selective hunting. A part from very close and unoredictable shots, which this rifle is not intended for (bulkier, heavier, louder, ffp scope) but they can happen, shots in these kind of hunting are well reasoned and planned. So i thought i could make this compromise to put ear protections before every shot.

 

[ssimo]

I'm bias and will say 300wsm. I've used one for the last 12 years. I've only used a 300wsm and currently running a custom 300wsm.
ive owend a tikka in 300wsm
Christensen arms ridgeline 300wsm
and now currently have a full custom 20" 300wsm
the tikka wasn't pleasant to shoot mainly due to the stock but once you add a brake its like shooting a .243
personally id say go with a tikka. get barrel chopped to 20" add a break and limbsaver recoil pad.
down the road buy a aftermarket stock.
you'll have a light compact 300wsm that will be good to take any of the animals you've listed out for 750+ yards.
I've used 180 accubonds in all my 300wsm I've killed everything from deer, bears, elk, mountain goats.
When I go sheep hunting I use 178gr ELDX's, now i wouldn't recommend this bullet to shoot at things within 100 yards I've had mixed expierences with them at shorter ranges but anything over that 200yard mark they work wonders.

And what about keeping the 24 inch barrel with the increased velocity? This is kind of a longer range oriented rig afterall

 

[BjornF16]

And you were right! Now i am not sure about the caliber anymore tough. I was thinking the bigger i can shoot well, the better for ballistic (external and terminal) but if almost everyone is suggesting me to adopt a smaller caliber there must be a reason but i don't get it!

Have a read through this:

Why Match/Target Bullets For Hunting

Next is terminal max effective range. I’ll explain in the next list what that means, but let’s just start with a expansion/upset that creates at least a 1 to 1.5 inch wide permanent wound channel. Using the same two bullets (147gr ELD-M and 140gr Accubond), the ELD-M needs 1,750fps +/- impact...

rokslide.com

 

[madcalfe]

And what about keeping the 24 inch barrel with the increased velocity? This is kind of a longer range oriented rig afterall

then keep it at 24"
24" 300wsm shooting 180's will be around 3025fps
20" 300wsm shooting 180's will be 2900-2925fps

20" barrel with 180's will put my gun out to 650yards for that reccomended1500 ft/lb for elk
and 850yards for the recommended minimum 1000 ft/lb for deer.

i personally will never go back to a standard/ longer barrel unless my 1 and only goal is a long range bomber.

 

[ssimo]

Have a read through this:

Why Match/Target Bullets For Hunting

Next is terminal max effective range. I’ll explain in the next list what that means, but let’s just start with a expansion/upset that creates at least a 1 to 1.5 inch wide permanent wound channel. Using the same two bullets (147gr ELD-M and 140gr Accubond), the ELD-M needs 1,750fps +/- impact...

rokslide.com

I agree with azhunter. i am saying these things Since Years on Italian Forums But here people are offen rigid and closeminded and they follow traditional hunting rules like never shooting at the Shoulder And Stuff like this. Not Every one is like thus But Many Hunters are here.

But this is OT

I mean, I understand the benefits of a smaller caliber but using a muzzlebrake and accepting a slightly heavier rifle i don't see many benefits to go with a just big enough caliber. I think a bigger one just gives you much more margin in so many ways. That said, I could be wrong, i always used my trusty 308 so i am listening with interest to what you say. The only thing i know is that in some occasions i would have love something with more punch and less drop/wind drift than the 308

 

[KenLee]

I agree with azhunter. i am saying these things Since Years on Italian Forums But here people are offen rigid and closeminded and they follow traditional hunting rules like never shooting at the Shoulder And Stuff like this. Not Every one is like thus But Many Hunters are here.

But this is OT

I use eld-m factory ammo from an anemic little 6.5 Grendel pistol out to 300 yards. Holy s**t it kills stuff!

 

[ssimo]

then keep it at 24"
24" 300wsm shooting 180's will be around 3025fps
20" 300wsm shooting 180's will be 2900-2925fps

20" barrel with 180's will put my gun out to 650yards for that reccomended1500 ft/lb for elk
and 850yards for the recommended minimum 1000 ft/lb for deer.

i personally will never go back to a standard/ longer barrel unless my 1 and only goal is a long range bomber.

What about the more flat trajectory and less wind drift due to those 100 ft/sec more? If i used a suppressor i would go for a 20 inch barrel for sure but these 3000 ft/sec are sexy honestly

 

[NilsBackstrom]

Ok i get your point. As far as ammo availability the 300 wsm is pretty easy to find here. We have the same ammo you have in the US as far as main manufacturer plus we have a lot of rws and geco.

I considered it but as i said i have a setup i like and I don't wanna change it. When something just works well i don't wanna change it. I could even buy another 308, this has been my idea for some time but then I said why not getting something more effective for my goals. Also i don't wanna change a scope that always worked well, kept zero perfectly and is just handy and efficient. And the rifle i have now is the perfect weight for me, adding a bipod and a heavier scope would give birth to a gun too heavy for my tastes.

The fact that a 300 wsm would destroy a roe is what i was worried about also because roes are, at the moment, my main target. So using harder bullets wouldn't work in your opinion?

I Def understand that you do not want change something that clearly works.

The issue I see is that the game that you are after is on broad spectrum with a roe deer that will die from a gust of wind and a bore that is built fairly robust. Even your range is very broad because a bore, even a big one is not very big at 400-500 meters. You are looking for something that will good for all of them, and that is pretty hard to find.

The thing that somebody earlier brought up that there is now weight gain (loss) on a tikka in short action is because the action in short action and long action with tikkas is the same, it is just plugged differently (not sure if that is the right term). Unlike some manufacturers who build a specific size for short action and a specific for long action.

Potentially a copper or less "wet" bullet will do less damage on a roe deer. In my opinion even a 308 is still on the higher end for a roe deer even with a copper bullet.


270 better BC than most 30 cal, not as much energy.

308 not great BC for long distance

300 wsm high power but not suitable for smaller game like roe deer.

Further down you wrote about Fiocci which my understanding is a lower manufacturer and does not tell you much about the actual bullet in particular, in this case the ttsx.

There is going to be alot of opinions and alot of input. I've seen a guy shoot an Alaskan moose at 500 yards, one shot with nobler partition that went all the way thru and got stuck in the hide on the other side. Great shot placement of course because he was really comfortable with that gun and practiced alot. It was a Remington 700, 20 something years old with a simple 3x9 leupold scope on it.

So maybe like many people said, buy a tikka in 308, put a more suitable scope on it and practice alot so you get comfortable out to 500 meters.

FYI in Alaska I have a leupold vx3 HD 4.5-14×40 CDS on both the 300 wsm and 6.5 creed. I feel very comfortable out to 500 yards with both. But that is my limit and I don't think I will even try and push it much further. That scope has no parallax or wind adjustment.

 

[ssimo]

I Def understand that you do not want change something that clearly works.

The issue I see is that the game that you are after is on broad spectrum with a roe deer that will die from a gust of wind and a bore that is built fairly robust. Even your range is very broad because a bore, even a big one is not very big at 400-500 meters. You are looking for something that will good for all of them, and that is pretty hard to find.

The thing that somebody earlier brought up that there is now weight gain (loss) on a tikka in short action is because the action in short action and long action with tikkas is the same, it is just plugged differently (not sure if that is the right term). Unlike some manufacturers who build a specific size for short action and a specific for long action.

Potentially a copper or less "wet" bullet will do less damage on a roe deer. In my opinion even a 308 is still on the higher end for a roe deer even with a copper bullet.


270 better BC than most 30 cal, not as much energy.

308 not great BC for long distance

300 wsm high power but not suitable for smaller game like roe deer.

Further down you wrote about Fiocci which my understanding is a lower manufacturer and does not tell you much about the actual bullet in particular, in this case the ttsx.

There is going to be alot of opinions and alot of input. I've seen a guy shoot an Alaskan moose at 500 yards, one shot with nobler partition that went all the way thru and got stuck in the hide on the other side. Great shot placement of course because he was really comfortable with that gun and practiced alot. It was a Remington 700, 20 something years old with a simple 3x9 leupold scope on it.

So maybe like many people said, buy a tikka in 308, put a more suitable scope on it and practice alot so you get comfortable out to 500 meters.

FYI in Alaska I have a leupold vx3 HD 4.5-14×40 CDS on both the 300 wsm and 6.5 creed. I feel very comfortable out to 500 yards with both. But that is my limit and I don't think I will even try and push it much further. That scope has no parallax or wind adjustment.

Firstly thank you and everyone else so much for the very informative replies

I know it doesn't say much but those fiocchi were making .3 moa groups with a sabatti a guy was shooting right next to me. And 308 is perfect for roes i can tell you that i killed a lot of them with it and it worked flawlessly. On a boar at 500 yards i wouldn't be so comfident. It would kill it of course but there would be much less margin.

Also i don't think the better BC of the 270 would be so much useful inside 500 yards, especially considering younare giving up a lot of energy and you have a much lighter projectile

What would be the benefits of picking up a 308 as a new rifle over a 300 wsm? And why a 300 wsm wouldn't be adequate for roe?

For example why would you hunt antelopes with your 6.5 intead of with your 300 wsm?

 

[madcalfe]

Firstly thank you and everyone else so much for the very informative replies

I know it doesn't say much but those fiocchi were making .3 moa groups with a sabatti a guy was shooting right next to me. And 308 is perfect for roes i can tell you that i killed a lot of them with it and it worked flawlessly. On a boar at 500 yards i wouldn't be so comfident. It would kill it of course but there would be much less margin.

Also i don't think the better BC of the 270 would be so much useful inside 500 yards, especially considering younare giving up a lot of energy and you have a much lighter projectile

What would be the benefits of picking up a 308 as a new rifle over a 300 wsm? And why a 300 wsm wouldn't be adequate for roe?

For example why would you hunt antelopes with your 6.5 intead of with your 300 wsm?

the only benefit a 308 has over a 300wsm is probably recoil and maybe ammo availability.
300wsm will do everything a 308 will do but with 300fps more...
just remember you can load a 300wsm up or down 125gr - 220gr pills

 

[NilsBackstrom]

Firstly thank you and everyone else so much for the very informative replies

I know it doesn't say much but those fiocchi were making .3 moa groups with a sabatti a guy was shooting right next to me. And 308 is perfect for roes i can tell you that i killed a lot of them with it and it worked flawlessly. On a boar at 500 yards i wouldn't be so comfident. It would kill it of course but there would be much less margin.

Also i don't think the better BC of the 270 would be so much useful inside 500 yards, especially considering younare giving up a lot of energy and you have a much lighter projectile

What would be the benefits of picking up a 308 as a new rifle over a 300 wsm? And why a 300 wsm wouldn't be adequate for roe?

For example why would you hunt antelopes with your 6.5 intead of with your 300 wsm?

The point I am trying to make is that the range you intend to shoot within along with variety of game is very broad. Both roe deer and fallow deer are very easy to bring down, I would consider bore being a a bit tougher. Making it very hard trying to find the perfect gun, scope, caliber being great for those animals at that broad range (10-500 meters).

I too have killed plenty roe deer with a 308 and consider that caliber be almost too much. When I say too much I mean meat loss. It will definitely kill it, so will a .22 with good placed shot. Meaning 300 wsm at 50 meters is gonna blow it up basically. So I am definitely not saying 300 wsm is not adequate for roe deer, rather that it is the opposite.

The better BC allows less wind drift. Which you mentioned being one of your worries when shooting at longer range. I consider anything past 200 yards being longer ranger where wind drift and drop will have an effect. The point I was trying to make regarding the 270 was more about shot placement.

The only time I use the 300 wsm is up north AK when i go for sheep and moose, mainly cause it works for grizzly bears as well in case I would have an encounter. Hopefully one day for elk which I have not hunted yet. Arguably the 6.5 creed would easily work on sheep as well, as they are not a very tough animal either.

The 6.5 I use for blacktail deer because it is a plenty sufficient caliber for that size of animal, great BC, flat shooting etc. And I don't ruin much meat.

You either go with a bigger and more powerful caliber that gives you margin down range and the downside is meat loss, or a lighter caliber which gives less of a margin down range and won't destroy as much meat.

I was very close on selling my 300 wsm and going with 280 AI for a do it all gun in the US. Not sure you want to go down that rabbit hole but might be worth checking out.

 

[ssimo]

The point I am trying to make is that the range you intend to shoot within along with variety of game is very broad. Both roe deer and fallow deer are very easy to bring down, I would consider bore being a a bit tougher. Making it very hard trying to find the perfect gun, scope, caliber being great for those animals at that broad range (10-500 meters).

I too have killed plenty roe deer with a 308 and consider that caliber be almost too much. When I say too much I mean meat loss. It will definitely kill it, so will a .22 with good placed shot. Meaning 300 wsm at 50 meters is gonna blow it up basically. So I am definitely not saying 300 wsm is not adequate for roe deer, rather that it is the opposite.

The better BC allows less wind drift. Which you mentioned being one of your worries when shooting at longer range. I consider anything past 200 yards being longer ranger where wind drift and drop will have an effect. The point I was trying to make regarding the 270 was more about shot placement.

The only time I use the 300 wsm is up north AK when i go for sheep and moose, mainly cause it works for grizzly bears as well in case I would have an encounter. Hopefully one day for elk which I have not hunted yet. Arguably the 6.5 creed would easily work on sheep as well, as they are not a very tough animal either.

The 6.5 I use for blacktail deer because it is a plenty sufficient caliber for that size of animal, great BC, flat shooting etc. And I don't ruin much meat.

You either go with a bigger and more powerful caliber that gives you margin down range and the downside is meat loss, or a lighter caliber which gives less of a margin down range and won't destroy as much meat.

I was very close on selling my 300 wsm and going with 280 AI for a do it all gun in the US. Not sure you want to go down that rabbit hole but might be worth checking out.

Exactly, i agree 100%. A compromise must be done, but i think I can find a bullet which gives me a good balance between meat loss and effectiveness. Personally i prefer losing some meat but increasing the possibility to make the animal suffer the least possible but i don't want the animal to blow up of course. In my 308 i am using regular geco 170 gr softpoint, even on roes. Yes, there is a bit of meat loss but the average amount of good meat i obtain from a roe using those ammo or less soft ones is more or less the same. If you shoot behind the shoulder you don't loose much meat anyways, if you shoot into the shoulder (i do it only when i absolutely need an instant drop) you are gonna trash a shoulder or two regardless of the bullet used. I have seen roes shot with 300 win mag or 300 wsm and i wouldn't have been able to say if they were shot with a magnum or with another 30 cal honestly.

I think the power of 300 wsm is not strictly necessary to take down a roe of course but i also don't think an animal can be "too dead". The better ballistic of a bigger cartridge, assuming the hunter can shoot it well, gives quite a few advantages and makes good shot placement easier at distance. One could achieve very good ballistic with some smaller caliber cartidges too and this would be ideal (less recoil, less loudness, easier to shoot well, better feedback on animal's reaction after the shot, lighter rifle, no need for muzzlebrake, etc). Unfortunately the smaller calibers that would give a really good ballistic are not readiky available or are to small for italian regulations. I would love a rifle in 7 SAUM but I literally can't find one and I don't like the idea of adopting a caliber which is fading away. Same for 7 wsm, 270 wsm. 7 prc, which would be a great cartridge for my applications, is not available anywhere and it will be so for a few years probably. The advantages of a 270 are not so great in comparison to a 308 loaded with lighter projectiles and the much shorter barrel life of the 270 wouldn't make me choose that caliber over a 308. 30-06 wpuld be a great choice but at that point why not some fps more and take a 300 wsm? The 7 rem mag would suit me very well also but, again, short barrel life and recoil/loudness comparable to the 300 wsm and with the idea to buy a 7 prc in the future buying now a 7 rem mag now doesn't make much sense to me. Same for 7x64, which would also be a good option. So i thought a 300 wsm with a muzzlebrake is a good compromise and gives me even more energy if in the future I want to shoot even further away or if i want to hunt bigger games outside Italy. 300 wsm is available here, there is plenty of rifle chambered in it and it looks like it's gonna remain in use also in the next decades. It has decent (not perfect) ballistic but a lot of power, not too much recoil, it's very accurate. I personally think it's a great all around cartridge for distances past 250 yards, while for my parameters, 308 is the perfect all around cartridge for distances inside 250 yards.

What do you think?

 

[ssimo]

I just did some research since my experiences with 300 magnums and roes are aneddotical, on a forum called "the stalking directory UK" there is a thread about "Is a .300 Win Mag too much for Roe?". It's interesting. The answer is basically "no, but if you are shooting only roes it's pointless to get all that recoil". The fact is that i am not shooting only roes and i am also gonna shoot at distances were the energy start decreasing quite a bit on small animal were the shot placement could not be always perfect (i don't shoot if I am not reasonably sure of the bullet placement but there are many variables while hunting, we all know it). More energy means more margin.

 

[Dexter Grayson]

I have a full length tikka .300wsm with a brake on it. It’s fun to shoot and very accurate!

I’ve shot everything from a coyote to a moose with it. Very efficient rifle.

 

[ssimo]

I have a full length tikka .300wsm with a brake on it. It’s fun to shoot and very accurate!

I’ve shot everything from a coyote to a moose with it. Very efficient rifle.

Terminal effects on a coyote?

 

[madcalfe]

id say 300wsm and run with it.
if you plan on getting a 7prc down the road then no reason to get a 7mag

 

[Dexter Grayson]

Terminal effects on a coyote?

He’s no longer with us. God rest his soul!

 

[ssimo]

id say 300wsm and run with it.
if you plan on getting a 7prc down the road then no reason to get a 7mag

I would love a 7 prc but who knows when and if it will become readily available like the 300 wsm or not. We will know it in some years i guess. For sure it's a caliber with a great potential.

 

[ssimo]

He’s no longer with us. God rest his soul!

Did it explode like if he had an f1 granade exploded in the chest?