.25 Cal (Quarter Bore) / Big Game Success - 25 Creed, 25-284, 25-06, 25 PRC, 25 SAUM

[BigNate]

How many elk or bigger animals have you killed and with what cartridges and bullets? What were the reactions of the animals, distance traveled after the hit, and approximately how much time from hit to drop was it?





What is “higher sd/bc bullets” mean to you? And how does SD play into terminal ballistics?

I knew when I wrote that you would have to respond.

First you have by far more experience than I. And yes I've pretty much stayed up on the ". 223 for everything" thread, and I've even used it myself on deer.
I have only a couple elk with a .25-06, one with a .257 Roberts, the rest have been taken with a .338 WM.
The very experience you have and are so quick to point out is also the reason why you are comfortable shooting bigger animals with a tiny cartridge.

By the same token, when people ask about choosing a cartridge for doing everything, they are either stirring the pot or lack knowledge and experience. It's my opinion that the larger caliber cartridges usually perform well enough with most ammo. While smaller calibers seem to be more finicky on bullet choice for game. Steering these people toward the middle ground of cartridge choice, and recommending certain bullets with well proven track records will start them off in the right direction.
You highly recommend the 77gr. TMK in the .223 for game. It has higher sd/bc than most of the readily available choices. It's performance is quite good on deer. I haven't shot anything bigger with it. There are other bullets that work on deer, in that caliber, and nearly as well.

However, not all shots are taken in wide open spaces and an exit hole helps with trailing. Where I hunt its very thick and some areas are close to private land. If an animal makes it over the fence so to speak, it adds to the trouble of recovery. I didn't get an exit with the Roberts using partitions, and very little blood from the entry. It went about 65 yards or so. Tracks were mixed with others, and the minimal blood made it hard to find her without snow. The .25-06 exited (Hornady 120gr. HP) and left a golfball size exit, with a good blood trail for about 40 yards on one, the other staggered around and piled up. The .338 had about the same performance, but did it while going through shoulders, spine, and diagonally through the chests including shoulders.

I've witnessed less satisfactory results with lighter faster bullets than heavier better constructed ones.
Go ahead, flame away!

 

[ResearchinStuff]

I've witnessed less satisfactory results with lighter faster bullets than heavier better constructed ones.
Go ahead, flame away!

Respectfully, your own experience from the partition vs the 120HP right above contradicts this conclusion. Between those two, the partition is undeniably the " heavier better constructed," yet it's performance was worse.

 

[hicountry1]

25/06ai, kimber Montana, 110ab.

Coyote was trying to get a squirrel dinner.

Hog was with same bullet.

Both dropped in their tracks.

 

[BigNate]

Respectfully, your own experience from the partition vs the 120HP right above contradicts this conclusion. Between those two, the partition is undeniably the " heavier better constructed," yet it's performance was worse.

Have you tested the Hornady 120gr HP? It was designed for Joyce Hornady specifically for his beloved .257 Weatherby. It was a much tougher bullet than most people think. So there we are heavier bullet higher velocity and better performance.

Granted, not much of an on game sample but a great bullet. I bought all I could find when I found out they were being dropped.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Have you tested the Hornady 120gr HP? It was designed for Joyce Hornady specifically for his beloved .257 Weatherby. It was a much tougher bullet than most people think. So there we are heavier bullet higher velocity and better performance.

Granted, not much of an on game sample but a great bullet. I bought all I could find when I found out they were being dropped.

I have not, and I guess mistakely assumed it was similar in construction to the other 117/120 gr soft point designs, which I have shot a bunch of.

 

[BigNate]

I have not, and I guess mistakely assumed it was similar in construction to the other 117/120 gr soft point designs, which I have shot a bunch of.

I haven't tried any others since those in 25 cal in probably 25 years at this point so can't speak to the latest ones, but they beat the interlock for penetration back then.
I still use them for varmints.

 

[Tradchef]

Last years bull. 25-06 , hornady eld-x 110 grain, 300 yards. Dead on his feet. Not my primary elk caliber of choice but it always does the job when presented for sure !!!!!

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Last years bull. 25-06 , hornady eld-x 110 grain, 300 yards. Dead on his feet. Not my primary elk caliber of choice but it always does the job when presented for sure !!!!!

proof is in the pudding right there….

 

[Formidilosus]

I knew when I wrote that you would have to respond.

Haha.

First you have by far more experience than I. And yes I've pretty much stayed up on the ". 223 for everything" thread, and I've even used it myself on deer.
I have only a couple elk with a .25-06, one with a .257 Roberts, the rest have been taken with a .338 WM.
The very experience you have and are so quick to point out is also the reason why you are comfortable shooting bigger animals with a tiny cartridge.

But it’s not a “cartridge” issue, it’s a bullet issue. If two bullet create the same wound size, depth, and shape- it doesn’t matter what caliber or cartridge they come from.

By the same token, when people ask about choosing a cartridge for doing everything, they are either stirring the pot or lack knowledge and experience. It's my opinion that the larger caliber cartridges usually perform well enough with most ammo. While smaller calibers seem to be more finicky on bullet choice for game. Steering these people toward the middle ground of cartridge choice, and recommending certain bullets with well proven track records will start them off in the right direction.

You are not wrong as a general thing for bullets, however I have seen no improvement by increasing recoil, none. All increasing recoil does is make poor shots worse, it does not make up for poor shots.

However, not all shots are taken in wide open spaces and an exit hole helps with trailing. Where I hunt its very thick and some areas are close to private land. If an animal makes it over the fence so to speak, it adds to the trouble of recovery. I didn't get an exit with the Roberts using partitions, and very little blood from the entry. It went about 65 yards or so. Tracks were mixed with others, and the minimal blood made it hard to find her without snow. The .25-06 exited (Hornady 120gr. HP) and left a golfball size exit, with a good blood trail for about 40 yards on one, the other staggered around and piled up. The .338 had about the same performance, but did it while going through shoulders, spine, and diagonally through the chests including shoulders.

So your answer based on a couple elk(?) for someone asking the difference between .25cal and 6.5 is a 338 WM?

I've witnessed less satisfactory results with lighter faster bullets than heavier better constructed ones.
Go ahead, flame away!

No flaming. I’m just always curious how people are thinking. You never see someone say “I’ve killed 22 elk from short to long ranges with a 260Rem, kills great but is too small”. It’s always people that have little or no experience that say it.

 

[BigNate]

But it’s not a “cartridge” issue, it’s a bullet issue. If two bullet create the same wound size, depth, and shape- it doesn’t matter what caliber or cartridge they come from.

"If two bullet create the same wound size, depth, and shape"

No doubt but this is the part most don't bother to research and test. The wound channel is what determines the death.

You are not wrong as a general thing for bullets, however I have seen no improvement by increasing recoil, none. All increasing recoil does is make poor shots worse, it does not make up for poor shots.

So you believe a 6.5 Grendel and a 6.5 PRC are equal in performance, but shooters will make poor shots with the larger cartridge?

So your answer based on a couple elk(?) for someone asking the difference between .25cal and 6.5 is a 338 WM?

Your assumption. If you had read what I wrote, you'll find the answer to your own question.

No flaming. I’m just always curious how people are thinking. You never see someone say “I’ve killed 22 elk from short to long ranges with a 260Rem, kills great but is too small”. It’s always people that have little or no experience that say it.

Let me stroke your ego a little more so you can calm down and consider why I have a different opinion.
Most don't have the opportunity or means to get as much experience on game as you profess to have. That is why forums like this exist. People share experiences with each other. If everyone had equally vast experience these forums would be nothing but disagreements, and little learning.

I continue to contend that bullet performance trumps what cartridge it was launched from, however to reach the desired performance sometimes stepping up in case capacity is needed to reach the desired performance at whatever distance you expect to kill game at.

There's a reason cartridges like the .308W, .30-06, 7mmRM, etc. continue to be popular. They work well on game with little drama for the vast number of hunters who go year after year, making a single box of ammo last a decade. These same people wouldn't do well with small caliber rifles if they had to choose the ammo on their own.

Winchester went so far as to put pictures on their boxes of what they recommend could be taken with it.

As for comparing a .25 to a 6.5, or even a .277 bullets of equal construction driven at similar velocity will perform so similarly that for all practical purposes there's no difference. There will be differences as the velocities change.
We don't all hunt the same terrain so recommendations to someone asking for a do everything type choice will continue to be middle ground performance calibers and cartridges.

P.S. I like using my .338WM because it will cloverleaf groups with several different bullets and I hunt where grizzlies wearing red ear tags are not that uncommon.

 

[B23]

Sooo if someone were to build say a 25-284 using a 22in tube to shoot the Berger 133-135's and Hornady 134's would you use a 8tw or 7.5tw ???

 

[BigNate]

I'd go with the 7.5 twist if it were me.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

There is a twist rate calculator on the Berger website. You'll probably be good with 1:7 to 1:7.5, but if you put the numbers in, it will tell you if the selected twist will stabilize the chosen bullet.

https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

 

[PRC]

I may have to pull the old 25WSSM out of the safe and start reloading with the newer bullets available instead of selling it! Lol

Always a great gun to shoot with the 120pep @2990fps in a 22” barrel (factory loads) and killed a lot of critters including a huge black bear for my son!

 

[TxLite]

Sooo if someone were to build say a 25-284 using a 22in tube to shoot the Berger 133-135's and Hornady 134's would you use a 8tw or 7.5tw ???

For research purposes, what is your expected velocity on this setup? I ran the numbers on a 134 eld at 3100, and it’s pretty impressive. Just not sure the 25-284 has the sauce.

 

[eLightfoot]

For research purposes, what is your expected velocity on this setup? I ran the numbers on a 134 eld at 3100, and it’s pretty impressive. Just not sure the 25-284 has the sauce.

3100 might be achieved with a long barrel (26”+)
My 24” gets 133bergs to 3000 max load

 

[TxLite]

3100 might be achieved with a long barrel (26”+)
My 24” gets 133bergs to 3000 max load

Hmm. Was hoping for a 22” for suppressor use with a .473 bolt in a Tikka.

ETA: 24” would be my max I’d be comfortable with for that setup

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

I have a barrel chambered in 25-284 at 21" that should be on its way within a week. I'll be working up loads with h1000 and h4831sc and 133 grain bergers. I'll try to remember to update my results on this thread when I figure out the load!

 

[BradArnett]

25-06AI 100nbt's at 3450. Impact velocity on these 2 was 2350 and 2180. Neither of them traveled anywhere after the hit.

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

I said I'd update this thread when I got my loads worked up. Just finding pressure today but here's the results of a quick test!

I put on my new 25-284 barrel from preferred today (21" tikka build)

Worked up to pressure with h4831sc and h1000, the results surprised me. I expected to be able to load more charge weight than i did with the h4831sc. 50g was showing ejector marks and 51g had heavy bolt lift.

I was then doubly surprised when I reached the last of my h1000 loads with no major pressure signs (very slight primer flattening at 57g).

Can any of you make sense of this? I know h1000 is denser but holding 7 more grains seems kinda wild.

Anyone else have specifics on charge weight for 25-284 with 133 bergers? I'd like to compare notes!