25 creed vs the others

[TxLite]

I only used an 18 inch barrel for the 6CM due to that being the length on my current build, we are in the process of moving so I am trying to get my loading bench set up. Have been curious what I can push these 108 ELDM’s at

I get it. I like the 18” a lot and think it’s a great balance of portability with a suppressor and velocity. Just makes the data somewhat disingenuous when the other two are listed with 20”. Not apples to apples

 

[schmidty3]

What bullets have you guys used for hunting in the 25 Creed? I'm debating building a new NRL hunter rifle around the 138 A-Tips, but I'd also like to do a little hunting with it as well.

Anyone used that combo yet?

133s and 134s seem like the move for hunting. I got the 133s to try.

Went with the 135s for matches.

 

[180ls1]

Since you mentioned short barrels, I’m not sure you’ll be at 2850 with a 25. I’m at 2740 with a 20” suppressed barrel, and my first 200 shots were closer to 2640, with no suppressor. I’ve got roughly 400 shots thru mine

Yeah, I should have clarified, thats more like 24" stuff.

 

[hoodoo406]

133s and 134s seem like the move for hunting. I got the 133s to try.

Went with the 135s for matches.

I have some 134 ELD-M's, but for NRL Hunter I'm pretty set on the 138 A-Tips, and I'd like to use the same bullets to hunt with.

 

[TxLite]

I have some 134 ELD-M's, but for NRL Hunter I'm pretty set on the 138 A-Tips, and I'd like to use the same bullets to hunt with.

It sounds like you already know what you want then

I haven’t used A-tips but from what I’ve read they’re generally inconsistent on terminal performance

 

[solarshooter]

My post here digs into this question in a way:

I have shown some calcs in the past where I've done point assessments of certain cartridges/bullets/rifles to try and determine what is the lowest recoil way to get a certain wind number. Today I decided to elaborate on this a bit and assess recoil and wind number as a function of MV and caliber.

First, I created a reference bullet for each caliber which has a weight and BC representative of the highest performing bullets in that caliber.
View attachment 820767

I then estimated powder charges needed to get that bullet to the given MV in a roughly 20" barrel. This is cartridge agnostic, and may not be perfect. I use this in conjunction with bullet momentum to calculate total recoil.
View attachment 820768

I then calculate recoil in a 9lb rifle, run the bullet at the given speed to determine the wind number, and finally calculate wind# per recoil.
View attachment 820770

The way I would use this chart is to narrow in on what bullet at what speed gives you your desired performance and what the "recoil efficiency" of that combination would be. You could then pick your barrel length and cartridge to get you that performance target. For instance, if you ask what is the minimum recoil way to get an 8mph wind number gun, the answer is a 6mm bullet at 3200fps or so, aka a 6UM. It also shows you the recoil INefficiency of larger calibers - moving up in weight is almost always less recoil efficient than going faster.

In general, it's very hard to be the recoil per wind number efficiency of the high BC 22s. 223 is arguably near optimal in that metric. 6CM and 25CM are neck and neck, almost indistinguishable. Things like specific barrel lengths or bullet/powder choices are probably big enough to wash out the differences between the two.

But this is all looking at wind and recoil. If you factor in terminal range as a criteria, aka max range where minimum allowable impact velocity is achieved, then there is a bias for the faster moving bullets. For instance, here are 3 CM trajectories using MV for a 24" barrel.

22CM 80gr ELDM @ 3300fps:


6CM 108gr EH @ 3000fps:


25CM 134gr ELDM @ 2800fps:


They all have the same wind number, but the 22CM carries 1800fps minimum impact velocity 50-100yds further than the 6 or 25, with the least recoil of the 3.

 

[_MountainBum]

My post here digs into this question in a way:

In general, it's very hard to be the recoil per wind number efficiency of the high BC 22s. 223 is arguably near optimal in that metric. 6CM and 25CM are neck and neck, almost indistinguishable. Things like specific barrel lengths or bullet/powder choices are probably big enough to wash out the differences between the two.

But this is all looking at wind and recoil. If you factor in terminal range as a criteria, aka max range where minimum allowable impact velocity is achieved, then there is a bias for the faster moving bullets. For instance, here are 3 CM trajectories using MV for a 24" barrel.

22CM 80gr ELDM @ 3300fps:
View attachment 877146

6CM 108gr EH @ 3000fps:
View attachment 877149

25CM 134gr ELDM @ 2800fps:
View attachment 877148

They all have the same wind number, but the 22CM carries 1800fps minimum impact velocity 50-100yds further than the 6 or 25, with the least recoil of the 3.

After digesting data for the last few days, this is the point I have come to as well. The marketing seems to make me doubt my math, but it is clearly showing the 22CM as the choice when considering both efficiency at range and recoil as priority. There are niche roles where a 25 might shine or preferences that could push a 6 above the 22 - but I am ordering a 22 barrel. I plan on hand loading the 88ELDM‘s and getting them to about 3100 out of a 20”, which at my elevation would carry 1800fps past 800 yards.

 

[solarshooter]

After digesting data for the last few days, this is the point I have come to as well. The marketing seems to make me doubt my math, but it is clearly showing the 22CM as the choice when considering both efficiency at range and recoil as priority. There are niche roles where a 25 might shine or preferences that could push a 6 above the 22 - but I am ordering a 22 barrel. I plan on hand loading the 88ELDM‘s and getting them to about 3100 out of a 20”, which at my elevation would carry 1800fps past 800 yards.

I think where 25CM shines is when viewed relative to 6.5CM. In that comparison it is better, for the same reason 22 and 6 are better than 25.

If I lived in a state where I could hunt with 22cal I'd be building a 22CM as well. But 6mm is the minimum legal, so 6mm is what I built.

 

[willfrye027]

My post here digs into this question in a way:

In general, it's very hard to be the recoil per wind number efficiency of the high BC 22s. 223 is arguably near optimal in that metric. 6CM and 25CM are neck and neck, almost indistinguishable. Things like specific barrel lengths or bullet/powder choices are probably big enough to wash out the differences between the two.

But this is all looking at wind and recoil. If you factor in terminal range as a criteria, aka max range where minimum allowable impact velocity is achieved, then there is a bias for the faster moving bullets. For instance, here are 3 CM trajectories using MV for a 24" barrel.

22CM 80gr ELDM @ 3300fps:
View attachment 877146

6CM 108gr EH @ 3000fps:
View attachment 877149

25CM 134gr ELDM @ 2800fps:
View attachment 877148

They all have the same wind number, but the 22CM carries 1800fps minimum impact velocity 50-100yds further than the 6 or 25, with the least recoil of the 3.

My experience with 24”-26” 22 creedmoors vs 26” 6mm and 25 CM is that achieving “expected” numbers is easier with the 25, if that makes any sense. My 26” are very easily above 2900fps without trying any different powders or stepping hard on the loads. I cannot say the same about my 22 and 6mm experience.

For my current stable of creedmoors, the 25 variety has the best “numbers” on paper and the farthest terminal range. I can’t shoot the difference at 1000 yards. I absolutely appreciate the lower recoil of the 22 and 6cm and have been reaching for the 22 more often lately.

IMO it’s mostly a wash between the three, they all have trade offs.

 

[solarshooter]

My experience with 24”-26” 22 creedmoors vs 26” 6mm and 25 CM is that achieving “expected” numbers is easier with the 25, if that makes any sense. My 26” are very easily above 2900fps without trying any different powders or stepping hard on the loads. I cannot say the same about my 22 and 6mm experience.

For my current stable of creedmoors, the 25 variety has the best “numbers” on paper and the farthest terminal range. I can’t shoot the difference at 1000 yards. I absolutely appreciate the lower recoil of the 22 and 6cm and have been reaching for the 22 more often lately.

IMO it’s mostly a wash between the three, they all have trade offs.

Yeah my numbers were just based off published load data. Like I said, they're all so close that barrel length, powder, bullet, if you have a fast or slow barrel, etc could all sway them one way or another. But all those things held equal, what I said should be true.

 

[thewakler]

Since you mentioned short barrels, I’m not sure you’ll be at 2850 with a 25. I’m at 2740 with a 20” suppressed barrel, and my first 200 shots were closer to 2640, with no suppressor. I’ve got roughly 400 shots thru mine

Out of a 24” 25cm barrel, I ran the 134eld up to 2985 before I found pressure. 135gr at 2850 for NRL. 135gr at 2700 for PRS when a bigger splash is needed over a 109 6gt.

Huge fan of the 25cm. Less recoil than the 6.5cm, excellent performance. This is all from a competition focus, the 22cm / 22GT with 88s is also nasty if you can see the hits/misses.

 

[Pickettpuncher]

Out of a 24” 25cm barrel, I ran the 134eld up to 2985 before I found pressure. 135gr at 2850 for NRL. 135gr at 2700 for PRS when a bigger splash is needed over a 109 6gt.

Huge fan of the 25cm. Less recoil than the 6.5cm, excellent performance. This is all from a competition focus, the 22cm / 22GT with 88s is also nasty if you can see the hits/misses.

I got to 2870 with my 20” barrel without pressure but I never had the accuracy I’ve got now. When I got my first suppressor I started getting ejector marks. Played with the charge some but accuracy suffered so I left alone. I won’t make any power factor, but I built it to hunt. If I built a dedicated range rifle I’d use a 24-26” barrel.

 

[blue_ridge]

Ballistic performance of the high BC .25 cal bullets are undeniable to say the least, but where do you see this cartridge fitting in with the 22 creed, 6 creed, and 6.5 creed?

Ballistically splits the difference between the hot 6cm and the proven 6.5cm with some impressive wind deflection and trajectory data, but would you take it over 108’s out of the 6 or 140’s out of the 6.5?

I have been itching for a new build after completing my recent and beloved 6cm, and it seems it’s between the 22cm, the 25cm, or stepping back into the 6.5 PRC and launching 147’s out of a 20” barrel despite the extra, while manageable, recoil.

What are your thoughts on the cartridge and how it falls into the ranks of the forementined.

0.264 - 0.257 =0.007. 25 Creed is just a 6.5 Creed without half the bullet selection the 6.5 has.

 

[solarshooter]

0.264 - 0.257 =0.007. 25 Creed is just a 6.5 Creed without half the bullet selection the 6.5 has.

It's marginally more optimal in the 130gr bullet weight class. 6.5 optimizes in the 150gr weight class. And though there are not many bullet choices in 25, there are at least 3 very good choices that are readily available. You have to remember that volume and thus weight trend with the cube of the length dimensions. So small changes in diameter can mean large differences in mass and recoil.

 

[Jordan Smith]

It's marginally more optimal in the 130gr bullet weight class. 6.5 optimizes in the 150gr weight class. And though there are not many bullet choices in 25, there are at least 3 very good choices that are readily available. You have to remember that volume and thus weight trend with the cube of the length dimensions. So small changes in diameter can mean large differences in mass and recoil.

Sort of. Approximating a bullet as a cylinder, volume (and by extension, weight) vary linearly with length and quadratically with radius. Your point remains, however, that small changes in diameter result in a proportional squared change in volume.

 

[schmidty3]

0.264 - 0.257 =0.007. 25 Creed is just a 6.5 Creed without half the bullet selection the 6.5 has.

Or is it a 6.5 creed that has a better BC bullets in the more optimal weight range for its given case capacity?

 

[Jordan Smith]

Or is it a 6.5 creed that has a better BC bullets in the more optimal weight range for its given case capacity?

Nah.

C&C bullets (which includes almost all match bullets), generally have very reliable terminal performance when impacting between approximately 1800-2700 fps. By starting a 147 ELD at 2700, terminal performance is predictable and dependable from the muzzle out to the distance at which speed drops off to below ~1800. I'm happy to let BC do the heavy lifting, while keeping speeds in a range that I know is ideal for terminal performance (IMO).

 

[schmidty3]

Nah.

C&C bullets (which includes almost all match bullets), generally have very reliable terminal performance when impacting between approximately 1800-2700 fps. By starting a 147 ELD at 2700, terminal performance is predictable and dependable from the muzzle out to the distance at which speed drops off to below ~1800. I'm happy to let BC do the heavy lifting, while keeping speeds in a range that I know is ideal for terminal performance (IMO).

You realize that you effectively made a non-point in this debate? And You've unwittingly reinforced my point.

They both have eldms. The velocity expansion windows are the same.

I could take your exact paragraph, sub in 134 eldm, and the point would still be intact.

My current 147 load is 2675 fps. A 25 creed would comfortably send a mildly loaded 134 to 2850.

In this arbitrary condition in hot muggy houston...the 147 drops below 1800 at around 675 yards. The 25 keeps it past 800. Say ~125 yards more expansion range. That's not nothing. AND it gets to 800 with 1 mil less drop! That's not nothing either!

I think the creed case yearns for 130-140 gr bullets. Anything more is PRC food.

 

[MuleyFever]

Im jumping on the bandwagon. Ordered a barrel and picking up a donor Tikka that happened to come up for sale local in the morning.

 

[wyosam]

You realize that you effectively made a non-point in this debate? And You've unwittingly reinforced my point.

They both have eldms. The velocity expansion windows are the same.

I could take your exact paragraph, sub in 134 eldm, and the point would still be intact.

My current 147 load is 2675 fps. A 25 creed would comfortably send a mildly loaded 134 to 2850.

In this arbitrary condition in hot muggy houston...the 147 drops below 1800 at around 675 yards. The 25 keeps it past 800. Say ~125 yards more expansion range. That's not nothing. AND it gets to 800 with 1 mil less drop! That's not nothing either!

I think the creed case yearns for 130-140 gr bullets. Anything more is PRC food.

I think his point was that by starting the 147 at the top of the velocity window for reliable terminal performance, as opposed to above that window, there isn’t a worry of being too fast for desired performance at close range.


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