.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[NoveskeEnjoyer]

Does anyone have reliable expansion data on the TMK for 16" barrels? Using Black Hills 77gr TMK

I've read reports of 300 yards to 350 yards, seems shallow though for the TMK.

Thanks!

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Does anyone have reliable expansion data on the TMK for 16" barrels? Using Black Hills 77gr TMK

I've read reports of 300 yards to 350 yards, seems shallow though for the TMK.

Thanks!

Use impact velocity, not distance. 2000 FPS to be safe, 1800 FPS if you want to stretch it, though it appeared to upset well at 1440 FPS.

 

[Ajsomp]

Does anyone have reliable expansion data on the TMK for 16" barrels? Using Black Hills 77gr TMK

I've read reports of 300 yards to 350 yards, seems shallow though for the TMK.

Thanks!

Stop thinking of platform or barrel length and think muzzle velocity. So many variables in your question. Shooting an animal at 350 yards from a 16” barrel at sea level and shooting 350 yards out of an 16” barrel at 7000’ will yield different velocities.

Your impact velocity will be influenced by your location and conditions. Figure out what your MV is, and you can utilize your conditions in a ballistic solver like shooter to give you a range where your impact velocity is at 1800 FPS or above.

 

[mt terry d]

Regarding keeping 77 TMK impact velocity =>1800fps

Since 1800 fps is basically an arbitrary number, and according to Sierra themselves,
"Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications",
is there evidence to show that consistent performance of this bullet under 1800 fps is
unreliable?
Just curious if/how the limits have been tested and what those limitations are.

 

[Billogna]

Regarding keeping 77 TMK impact velocity =>1800fps

Since 1800 fps is basically an arbitrary number, and according to Sierra themselves,
"Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications",
is there evidence to show that consistent performance of this bullet under 1800 fps is
unreliable?
Just curious if/how the limits have been tested and what those limitations are.

I don't think there was ever any "official published" number from Sierra. IIRC 1800FPS was consistently observed to be the lower threshold for reliable expansion with tipped match bullets by people who logged several hundred animals.

 

[LimeSpoon]

View attachment 234673

Right side, humerus, ribs, heart, stopped on opposite side.View attachment 234678

There’s a mature bull moose three pages back that Gator’s wife killed, with a 3 inch wide wound channel that went through scapula spine. Also one that utterly destroyed the thickest part of the humerus before going through ribs and then heart. Can you state what is not good enough about the wound for you? What would you rather see?



Same as I asked Broomd. What are the limitations of the 77gr TMK from a 223?

Quoting this for posterity...I'm pretty sure we have already seen a 77 gr TMK punch through the upper leg of a moose, much less a deer, while still retaining enough velocity to penetrate to the offside through vital thoracic tissue.

 

[LimeSpoon]

77 TMK at about 2700 fps on a largeish (400 pound) hog that refused to cooperate after I put his pen mate down with a 22 lr. Shot hit behind the right eye socket, punched through the cranial vault and out the other side, the bullet was found between the offside skull and fat while cutting off the jowl bacon. I was going to halve the head with a sawzall, but as the skull crunched, decided to dissect down.

The skull was literally fractured in half.

For reference, a 410 just punches a caliber sized whole through the skull. Unfortunately I can say from experience that a 410 that misses the cranial valt will not stun a pig, a 77 TMK that misses will still stun it with performance very similar to a correctly placed 22 lr.

Reference of a smaller pig stunned with a 22 lr, you can actually see the remains of the 22 bullet between the skull and brain, it lacked the force to puncture the membranes around the brain after going through the skull, which is why a 22 only stuns them.
View attachment 758013


Finger is on the entry, knife tip on the exit, the jowls have already been removed, so an inch of tissue is missing on the exit side.View attachment 758012View attachment 758011View attachment 758010

The bullet remains , it did not completely come apart and the lead remained in the base. There was also a slurry of lead flakes in the area the bullet stopped.View attachment 758009

View attachment 758005View attachment 758008

Those are chunks of solid bone that were fractured and I could flip up with my fingers.
View attachment 758007

The tip of the knife is touching the first bit of solid bone towards the nose and my finger is inline with the first bit of solid bone towards the back. I could rock the front and back independently and feel the bottom of the cranial vault was shattered similarly to the top with my fingers.
View attachment 758006

This skull had fractures through areas more than 1 inch thick, this is solid bone, not hollow bones with marrow like the legs/ribs/pelvis.

I am beyond impressed. The bullet itself passed through 1.5 inches of bone.

**Edited for spelling and clarity.

And, to add on, the skull of a 400 lb pig completely transected, ~1.5" of solid bone and all.

 

[mt terry d]

IIRC 1800FPS was consistently observed to be the lower threshold for reliable expansion with tipped match bullets by people who logged several hundred animals.

Can you point me to this information?

I don't recall seeing it in this thread, or anywhere for that matter.

 

[BOLIO]

Can you point me to this information?

I don't recall seeing it in this thread, or anywhere for that matter.

This gets well below 1800 but it was very useful to me. Hope this helps some.

 

[FredH]

One test doesn't make it settled science.

IMO I wouldn’t walk past ELDM’s to search for TMK’s. In reference to the wound channels of each on whitetails at 223 velocity.

Also going to try the 155 TMK in my 308 this year as another comparison.
I think I know haw that will go.

Lots of gore most likely.

 

[Pharmseller]

Ready for deer.

Different rifles, though both Tikkas.





Both groups were 8 shots, both slightly under .8”.



P

 

[UpSideDown]

I use the 147 ELDM in my prc so Id be happy to use the 73gr if the TMK is hard to find.

I happily use ELD-M’s. Back to back with two of my rifles, a buddy and I shot two elk, both double lung shots, with 180gr from a 7prc (80yds) and 147gr from a 6.5 creedmoor (130yds). They both turned the lungs to jello with similar performance, but substantially more volumetric damage from the 7prc.

The 7prc shot elk ran down an embankment and died partway down. The 6.5 creedmoor shot elk toddled where he was shot for a minute as the herd left him, and died where he stood.

I trust that either an ELD-M or TMK will perform excellently, but I think there is both a difference in the volumetric damage difference associated with impact energy, and a difference in the attitude/response of a given animal that affects each kill. I do believe a 7mm-30cal magnum will kill an animal faster than a .223 bullet in the same circumstances, but that the biggest difference in run distance is the animals response to the shot or follow up ‘spook’ of movement and noise.

 

[BLJ]

One test doesn't make it settled science.

Lots of gore most likely.

You’re right. I should probably shoot 2 or 3 of them.

 

[BAKPAKR]

Sounds like a question for the person who posted the picture.

LOL, you are the one who posted the link to the photo as proof that bullet x would meet the requirement of @FredH of “breaking the upper leg bone at or under the ball and still give good penetration and damage after.” So, he had a valid question.

And, since you posted the link, do you know the story? What was with a femur shot? Was it just a test after the hind leg was boned out or was it a follow up shot on a moose wounded by a 22 caliber rifle?

 

[BAKPAKR]

Does anyone have reliable expansion data on the TMK for 16" barrels? Using Black Hills 77gr TMK

I've read reports of 300 yards to 350 yards, seems shallow though for the TMK.

Thanks!

I don’t have a photo of the recovered bullet but I shot a doe through the lungs with a 77 gr TMK out of a 16” 223 (Noveske, actually) at a little over 230 yards. It expanded enough for jacket/core separation and did not exit.

 

[Billogna]

Can you point me to this information?

I don't recall seeing it in this thread, or anywhere for that matter.

It's all over this thread. Form has stated several times that he and those he shoots with have logged and recorded several hundred kills. Not all of their data has been made public as far as I know. But he has personally shared an astounding number of animals with range, impact velo and field autopsy pics. That and the fact that several other members here has all added to this thread just keeps compiling the data. So... you're in the right place brotha!!

 

[mt terry d]

It's all over this thread. Form has stated several times that he and those he shoots with have logged and recorded several hundred kills. Not all of their data has been made public as far as I know. But he has personally shared an astounding number of animals with range, impact velo and field autopsy pics. That and the fact that several other members here has all added to this thread just keeps compiling the data. So... you're in the right place brotha!!

I'm sorry, apparently I didn't make myself clear.
Those several hundred kills
are not <1800fps. That's what I'm asking about.
I don't recall more than one kill here with an impact velocity <1800fps
let alone enough to make any reasonable conclusion that 1800fps is the
lower limit for reliable performance of the 77 TMK

 

[omicron1792]

@form has been pretty consistent that the bullet will upset reliably down to 1800fps

 

[BOLIO]

I'm sorry, apparently I didn't make myself clear.
Those several hundred kills
are not <1800fps. That's what I'm asking about.
I don't recall more than one kill here with an impact velocity <1800fps
let alone enough to make any reasonable conclusion that 1800fps is the
lower limit for reliable performance of the 77 TMK

Post in thread '.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.'

Jan 9, 2023

Another elk. This one at very low impact velocity. 1,440fps impact. 77gr TMK. First shot was through scapula, high lung, second shot back of ribs and broke the spine. Total distance traveled was 30’ish yards.








Still upsetting quite well-

• Formidilosus

• 
• 

This is a big critter at 1440 impact velocity

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

LOL, you are the one who posted the link to the photo as proof that bullet x would meet the requirement of @FredH of “breaking the upper leg bone at or under the ball and still give good penetration and damage after.” So, he had a valid question.

And, since you posted the link, do you know the story? What was with a femur shot? Was it just a test after the hind leg was boned out or was it a follow up shot on a moose wounded by a 22 caliber rifle?

Story may have been on the podcast or posted in another thread. Maybe @Ryan Avery can chime in since it's his picture.