.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[KHntr]

How long can you load your 223AI?

No clue at the moment. I’m not at home till tomorrow. I want to say that I’m at 2.435” in the Montana, but thats just happenstance when I was shooting up some leftover rounds from before the rebarrel and they shot spectacularly well, so I haven’t bothered to check how far I could seat them out.

 

[KHntr]

Comparing Mono's to soft .224 bullets is definitely comparing things that are not really comparable. I have shot maybe 5 game animals with monometal bullets. The early Barnes X bullets. Little to no expansion so you are right not much damage. I was severely pissed at Barnes for marketing such crap bullets. The newer ones are supposed to be much better but I am not buying any. Comparing larger cartridges to the 223AI why not go with similar bullets? You don't even have to go to monstrously larger cartridges. Say a 7-08 running a 145 gr Speer BTSP or a SST even. Both kill very quickly and do kick a bit harder than a 223AI. I am not so sure you could say an 88 gr. ELDM would kill any faster, create a larger wound channel or penetrate as deep. I do feel that if I needed to I could also get off a pretty accurate and quick follow up shot. I have several different bullets loaded up for my 223 and 22 ARC I am going to test this year and I do hope I can get results very near what I can get from my 260 Rem, 7-08 or 308 using good bullets designed to quickly bring down deer. In your example of large cartridges using mono's against smaller cartridges using fast opening bullets why not reverse it and say a 223 using mono's and larger cartridges using standard deer bullets. Pretty sure in that case the larger rounds would give far better performance.

But why? I know mono’s aren’t spectacular in anything, as I shot a pile of critters with them over a decade plus of time, in 45/50/53/55/62/120/150/168/180/200 gr weights.

Why would I go to a 7/08 with a softer bullet versus a 223 with mono’s? Why would I go to a larger cartridge period?
I killed a lot of bulls with 150/168/180/200 gr mono’s, and 88’s kill bulls faster with less recoil and less muzzle blast and still break shoulders. Why would I go to anything bigger? What would it gain me? I’m a 600m and in killer, so I don’t need the added reach of a 6.5/7/300.

To be fair, I did have a dedicated killing rifle built for this season in a much larger cartridge period, but it’s still shooting 88’s.

 

[Bluumoon]

I have shot XM193 5.56 ammo and it was fine. Bone Frog has a disclaimer about not using thier 5.56 in a 223. I thought it would be no different especially because I am loading my handload about .040 longer with the TMK.

I pulled 10 rounds out of 9 different boxes. COAL was less than 2.260 on all. Shooting for 18” Tikka

 

[nettereo16]

Any Fed Fusion 223 kills? Midway had blems for a good price so I bought a bunch to load, was happy when I used factory loadings in 308/3006

 

[omicron1792]

Any Fed Fusion 223 kills? Midway had blems for a good price so I bought a bunch to load, was happy when I used factory loadings in 308/3006

Tons. Always listed as one of best 3-4 bullets for 223.

 

[nm.otter]

If case capacity is being measured to the mouth of the case that is fine for comparison. However the difference is going to be greater when you measure it with a bullet seated.

The figures I posted above are derived using case dimensions from the base of the neck back.

 

[FredH]

The figures I posted above are derived using case dimensions from the base of the neck back.

In both cartridges the base of an 88 gr. ELDM will protrude some into the case body, much worse with the 223 unless a really long OAL is possible. The 22 ARC at standard Mag length still has the same issue just not as bad.

 

[FredH]

No clue at the moment. I’m not at home till tomorrow. I want to say that I’m at 2.435” in the Montana, but thats just happenstance when I was shooting up some leftover rounds from before the rebarrel and they shot spectacularly well, so I haven’t bothered to check how far I could seat them out.

I was considering building a 223AI or for a while a 22-204. Of course this to give the heavier bullets more speed. But then logic stepped in and instead of chasing that rabbit down a hole I figured if I needed more why not use one of my 243 rifles for deer or any of my other rifles for that matter. I shoot between 3 and 8 deer a year depending on how much time I have for travel. My 223 and 22ARC this year will get the usual doe or two but when looking to fill my buck tags I use cartridges with the option of more penetration while still providing good wound channels. There is nothing a 223 AI, 223 or 22 ARC can do that a 7-08 loaded with good bullets can't do as well or better especially in east Texas. I find the 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip to be without peer.

 

[omicron1792]

I was considering building a 223AI or for a while a 22-204. Of course this to give the heavier bullets more speed. But then logic stepped in and instead of chasing that rabbit down a hole I figured if I needed more why not use one of my 243 rifles for deer or any of my other rifles for that matter. I shoot between 3 and 8 deer a year depending on how much time I have for travel. My 223 and 22ARC this year will get the usual doe or two but when looking to fill my buck tags I use cartridges with the option of more penetration while still providing good wound channels. There is nothing a 223 AI, 223 or 22 ARC can do that a 7-08 loaded with good bullets can't do as well or better especially in east Texas. I find the 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip to be without peer.

At least you’re consistent.

 

[nm.otter]

In both cartridges the base of an 88 gr. ELDM will protrude some into the case body, much worse with the 223 unless a really long OAL is possible. The 22 ARC at standard Mag length still has the same issue just not as bad.

This is part of what's piqued my curiosity about .22 GT. The Nose column below shows the available length from the front of the neck to the tip of the bullet:

 

[FredH]

This is part of what's piqued my curiosity about .22 GT. The Nose column below shows the available length from the front of the neck to the tip of the bullet:
View attachment 899560

I like the 22 GT. Might be a neat toy.

 

[Schmo]

This is part of what's piqued my curiosity about .22 GT. The Nose column below shows the available length from the front of the neck to the tip of the bullet:
View attachment 899577

How much faster is a 22 GT over a 22 BR?

 

[Badlandoutdoors]

You are misunderstanding the subtle difference between having the ability to send a follow up shot quickly and accurately, versus NEEDING to send a follow up shot.
I’ve been on the larger end of the spectrum animal wise when it comes to 22 centerfires, and a moose and an elk both got follow ups, but they didn’t need follow ups. There is an important distinction there.

I also killed quite a few elk and moose with mono’s that got follow ups shots, some needed them, some didn’t, but the ones that I could, got them. The ones shot with 88 ELD m’s from a 223AI, had more bullet trauma and faster kills than the ones shot with 264wm, 7wsm, 280AI, 300 Ultra and mono’s.

Think about that for a second in regards to your question. A 223 with 88’s kills stuff faster than big tough bullets from high recoil rifles. A 6 Creed isn’t gaining you anything over a 223 when viewed in that context.

By all means go 6 cm if you want, but you aren’t really going to gain any real world results.

Thank you for this response. I hadn’t thought about it this way.

I don’t have a .223 currently but do have a 22 creed. In this case my 22creed would suffice and no need for the 6 creed then? Is there an issue with the velocities I get out of my CM and match bullets? Right night the 77 tmk has a MV of 3080.


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[Q_Sertorius]

Thank you for this response. I hadn’t thought about it this way.

I don’t have a .223 currently but do have a 22 creed. In this case my 22creed would suffice and no need for the 6 creed then? Is there an issue with the velocities I get out of my CM and match bullets? Right night the 77 tmk has a MV of 3080.


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As long as it is legal for deer or elk in your jurisdiction, I would happily use the 22 Creed. I freely confess that I have gone from skeptic to wholehearted convert to the “good bullet in a low-recoiling rifle” during the course of the last three years.

I preach the .243 and 6mm Creed because the .224 caliber cartridges are illegal for deer in Virginia.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[KHntr]

Thank you for this response. I hadn’t thought about it this way.

I don’t have a .223 currently but do have a 22 creed. In this case my 22creed would suffice and no need for the 6 creed then? Is there an issue with the velocities I get out of my CM and match bullets? Right night the 77 tmk has a MV of 3080.


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I had a 22 creed built around the 88 ELD m after killing a jag of stuff with a 223AI and that bullet. I also bought a 6.5 creed as a donor action for a 6 creed. After shooting the 6.5 I couldn’t justify pulling the barrel based on how it shot. Pretty unlikely that I’m going to live long enough to be able to hunt wooly mammoths so I probably don’t have a need for a 6.5 creed, but I have one now.

I shot a few water jugs with the 88’s at 2780 fps mv and at 3200 fps mv. No difference in penetration, but the faster impact velocity had a bit more damage to the jugs themselves.

I doubt that you would be able to discern any difference in on game performance between a 22 and 6 creed inside 900 yards or so. (Although in the interest of full disclosure I’m a 650 yards and in killer).
About the only reason to go 6 over 22 is legality, if you worry about that. Although I would just have a barrel left unstamped and run a 22.

 

[atmat]

About the only reason to go 6 over 22 is legality, if you worry about that. Although I would just have a barrel left unstamped and run a 22.

Doesn’t federal law require the caliber to be stamped somewhere on a firearm?

Even if not, it’s still illegal to hunt below minimum calibers.

I cant believe people so adamantly defend firearm rights and then advise on breaking laws related to firearms.

 

[KHntr]

I’m Canadian. Different laws.

 

[atmat]

I’m Canadian. Different laws.

Don’t most places in Canada still have minimum caliber restrictions? And would violating those not still constitute a crime?

 

[Schmo]

Don’t most places in Canada still have minimum caliber restrictions? And would violating those not still constitute a crime?

I’m not supporting law breaking, but maybe just leave well enough alone. Let guys make their own decisions.

 

[KHntr]

Don’t most places in Canada still have minimum caliber restrictions? And would violating those not still constitute a crime?

A couple of provinces have 243 cal minimum’s and one has a 270 min I think. No rimfires for big game.

As to whether a 22 cf versus a 243 is a “crime” or not, I prefer to make my own decisions based on my own experiences.