.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Deere_Man]

How fast is your 223AI with the 88? When comparing my 22 ARC with the 88 ELDM (factory Hornady ammo @ 2698 fps) to my 6CM with the 105 Berger (factory Federal GMM @ 2893 fps, which is the most accurate load in my rifle) you get 150 yards further with the 6CM to 1800. When the 88 is compared to the 108 ELDM (factory Hornady ammo @ 2838 fps, second most accurate round in my rifle) you get 90+ yards further with the 108 ELDM over the 88 ELDM. These are both 22" barreled rifles suppressed.

Unless your 223AI is pushing the 88s faster than the 22 ARC, there is quite a bit of performance gained by the 6CM.

Jay

Why would a case with same capacity shoot a heavier bullet faster? Are you sure it’s not just a case of your 22 ARC has a slower barrel?

 

[Choupique]

Seems most look at the numbers on a ballistic chart and then assume they are capable of taking advantage of those differences

Just going by the ballistic charts, we oughta all be shooting a 338 norma or 408 cheytac or 50 bmg or something.

Lots of wallop, lots of kaboom, lots of carnage, can be used for indirect fire with a good enough spotter!

 

[The Guide]

Why would a case with same capacity shoot a heavier bullet faster? Are you sure it’s not just a case of your 22 ARC has a slower barrel?

From my understanding, the 22 ARC has 4 to 5 grains greater case capacity at 34 grains vs 29 to 30 depending on what brand case the 223AI is made from. Not arguing, just curious since using those numbers the 22 ARC has 13 to 15 percent more case capacity.

Jay

 

[Deere_Man]

From my understanding, the 22 ARC has 4 to 5 grains greater case capacity at 34 grains vs 29 to 30 depending on what brand case the 223AI is made from. Not arguing, just curious since using those numbers the 22 ARC has 13 to 15 percent more case capacity.

Jay

Yeah, that’s what I am asking. Why is the 88gr 22 ARC slower than the 6 ARC out of your two guns? If the 22 ARC has additional case capacity and a lighter bullet, it should go faster than the 6 ARC.

Maybe Hornady powder is a dog? People complain about Hornady’s velocity of 7mm PRC pretty frequently.

 

[The Guide]

Yeah, that’s what I am asking. Why is the 88gr 22 ARC slower than the 6 ARC out of your two guns? If the 22 ARC has additional case capacity and a lighter bullet, it should go faster than the 6 ARC.

22ARC vs 6CM

Jay

 

[omicron1792]

From my understanding, the 22 ARC has 4 to 5 grains greater case capacity at 34 grains vs 29 to 30 depending on what brand case the 223AI is made from. Not arguing, just curious since using those numbers the 22 ARC has 13 to 15 percent more case capacity.

Jay

I agree with above. Your 22arc sounds slow.

2820 on factory ammo on box from 24”. You should be being 2770, which would make your numbers much less drastic.

 

[Deere_Man]

22ARC vs 6CM

Jay

lol, you had me all confused. And by you, I mean me. Must be the NC heat.

 

[The Guide]

I agree with above. Your 22arc sounds slow.

2820 on factory ammo on box from 24”. You should be being 2770, which would make your numbers much less drastic.

I've never seen factory ammo (especially Hornady) match the box speeds. It is always 50 to 150 fps slower with the same length test barrel. I've had different lots of the same ammo vary over 100 fps between lots. Since there is no factory ammo for the 223AI, the 22 ARC is all I have to check against using that same bullet. If you want to just use box speeds, the 6CM 105 box speed is 3050 fps so it still carries the same velocity differential as my rifles show. I don't think my 22 ARC is slow since with the 80 ELDX the box speed is 3010 fps and my crono speed is 2945 fps on one lot and 2905 on another lot. I just bought another case of 22 ARC 88 ELDM and I hope this lot is faster than the first lot.

Jay

 

[omicron1792]

I've never seen factory ammo (especially Hornady) match the box speeds. It is always 50 to 150 fps slower with the same length test barrel. I've had different lots of the same ammo vary over 100 fps between lots. Since there is no factory ammo for the 223AI, the 22 ARC is all I have to check against using that same bullet. If you want to just use box speeds, the 6CM 105 box speed is 3050 fps so it still carries the same velocity differential as my rifles show. I don't think my 22 ARC is slow since with the 80 ELDX the box speed is 3010 fps and my crono speed is 2945 fps on one lot and 2905 on another lot. I just bought another case of 22 ARC 88 ELDM and I hope this lot is faster than the first lot.

Jay

I see. I think the 88 is the heavy for 22 arc, and 105 isn’t for 6cr. Maybe comparing to the 108 is more apples to apples.

That said, I don’t find the 22arc to have enough of a jump over 223 for the juice to be worth squeeze. Unless you are just dead set on using the 88 instead of the 77tmk.

 

[wind gypsy]

At the far fringes of range, sure. A glance at 6 creed factory ammo (I don’t have a 6 creed, so no actual numbers of my own to plug in) in JBM shows me it’ll carry an extra 30m of distance to an 1800fps impact over my 223AI’s.

But yeah, you gain some at the edges for sure.

Id imagine a 6 creed can push a 109 ELDm faster than a 223AI pushes a 88 at similar barrel lengths/pressures. So higher BC bullet pushed faster and if the 109 doesn't work there are other suitable alternatives where as there's not really anything else in the 88ELDm realm if a barrel shoots them poorly.

 

[wind gypsy]

From my understanding, the 22 ARC has 4 to 5 grains greater case capacity at 34 grains vs 29 to 30 depending on what brand case the 223AI is made from. Not arguing, just curious since using those numbers the 22 ARC has 13 to 15 percent more case capacity.

Jay

Looks like 29-30 gr is more aligned with straight 223 capacity and 223AI splits the difference between 223 and 22 ARC. Screenshot taken from accurate shooter.

 

[The Guide]

I see. I think the 88 is the heavy for 22 arc, and 105 isn’t for 6cr. Maybe comparing to the 108 is more apples to apples.

That said, I don’t find the 22arc to have enough of a jump over 223 for the juice to be worth squeeze. Unless you are just dead set on using the 88 instead of the 77tmk.

The 22 ARC will give you 200 to 300 fps more velocity with the same bullet class over the standard 223. I understand that it isn't the same bullet but when you compare my fastest 223 and 77tmk combo (2758 fps) and my wife's 22 ARC with the 75 ELDM (2995 fps) you gain 205 yards to 1800 fps with 600 yards with the 77tmk and 805 with the 75 ELDM at my current conditions. It isn't same for same due to different bullets but does gives a general idea of what the potential difference would be. I'm sure that a good load with the 77tmk in the 22 ARC would be 250 fps faster than the 223. The 22 ARC with a 77tmk at 3000 fps would hit 1800 at 725 and gives a +125 yards over the 223 with the same bullet. To me, that's worth the squeeze since you're not wildcatted and using factory brass.

Jay

Edited to add that as per the original thing I posted, the 6CM will get you 200 to 300 yards additional terminal velocity over the standard 223 but for most people, that additional distance will never be usable as their skill level doesn't allow them to remain on target at those longer distances.

 

[Thegman]

I mistakenly shot two boxes of Frontier 556 68 gr in my 223. So far no problems. I will not be doing it again. I did notice the bolt was sticky when I was ejecting the empties.

What rifle make is your 223?

 

[Thegman]

From my understanding, the 22 ARC has 4 to 5 grains greater case capacity at 34 grains vs 29 to 30 depending on what brand case the 223AI is made from. Not arguing, just curious since using those numbers the 22 ARC has 13 to 15 percent more case capacity.

Jay

I don't know much about the ARC, but my LC 5.56 brass will usually be around 30.6 grains capacity. AI-ing the case would put it around 32 grains, fwiw.

I guess even a bit more than that according to the chart @wind gypsy posted.

 

[nm.otter]

Compared with .223 Winchester:
.22 ARC has 16% more usable case capacity
.22 GT has 48% more
.22 Creedmoor has 75% more

 

[KHntr]

How fast is your 223AI with the 88?

In a triplicate of 223AI, the fastest was 2780 and the slowest was 2600 from new.

Last load I chrono’d in the slowest rifle run over the Garmin was giving me 2789 in formed starline (on a warm day). Others are running 2770 on average.

 

[FredH]

You are misunderstanding the subtle difference between having the ability to send a follow up shot quickly and accurately, versus NEEDING to send a follow up shot.
I’ve been on the larger end of the spectrum animal wise when it comes to 22 centerfires, and a moose and an elk both got follow ups, but they didn’t need follow ups. There is an important distinction there.

I also killed quite a few elk and moose with mono’s that got follow ups shots, some needed them, some didn’t, but the ones that I could, got them. The ones shot with 88 ELD m’s from a 223AI, had more bullet trauma and faster kills than the ones shot with 264wm, 7wsm, 280AI, 300 Ultra and mono’s.

Think about that for a second in regards to your question. A 223 with 88’s kills stuff faster than big tough bullets from high recoil rifles. A 6 Creed isn’t gaining you anything over a 223 when viewed in that context.

By all means go 6 cm if you want, but you aren’t really going to gain any real world results.

Comparing Mono's to soft .224 bullets is definitely comparing things that are not really comparable. I have shot maybe 5 game animals with monometal bullets. The early Barnes X bullets. Little to no expansion so you are right not much damage. I was severely pissed at Barnes for marketing such crap bullets. The newer ones are supposed to be much better but I am not buying any. Comparing larger cartridges to the 223AI why not go with similar bullets? You don't even have to go to monstrously larger cartridges. Say a 7-08 running a 145 gr Speer BTSP or a SST even. Both kill very quickly and do kick a bit harder than a 223AI. I am not so sure you could say an 88 gr. ELDM would kill any faster, create a larger wound channel or penetrate as deep. I do feel that if I needed to I could also get off a pretty accurate and quick follow up shot. I have several different bullets loaded up for my 223 and 22 ARC I am going to test this year and I do hope I can get results very near what I can get from my 260 Rem, 7-08 or 308 using good bullets designed to quickly bring down deer. In your example of large cartridges using mono's against smaller cartridges using fast opening bullets why not reverse it and say a 223 using mono's and larger cartridges using standard deer bullets. Pretty sure in that case the larger rounds would give far better performance.

 

[The Guide]

In a triplicate of 223AI, the fastest was 2780 and the slowest was 2600 from new.

Last load I chrono’d in the slowest rifle run over the Garmin was giving me 2789 in formed starline (on a warm day). Others are running 2770 on average.

NICE! That is definitely moving right along. It seems that you've definitely got a good system for the 88 ELDM. You're seeing 22 ARC speeds from your case. For people wanting to up their game in a 22 caliber but don't want the barrel life of a 22CM or to deal with wildcat rounds the 22 ARC is a happy medium. Using your 223AI speed of 2770 and my 6CM speed on the 108 of 2838, there is only a 50 yard terminal velocity gain with the 6CM. Given this information, the 6CM wouldn't be worth the gain in your situation.

Jay

 

[FredH]

From my understanding, the 22 ARC has 4 to 5 grains greater case capacity at 34 grains vs 29 to 30 depending on what brand case the 223AI is made from. Not arguing, just curious since using those numbers the 22 ARC has 13 to 15 percent more case capacity.

Jay

If case capacity is being measured to the mouth of the case that is fine for comparison. However the difference is going to be greater when you measure it with a bullet seated. Loaded to mag length my 22 ARC has a lot less bullet down in the case. My 223 bolt gun easily handles 2.340 COAL. This still leaves the base of the 88 gr. ELDM deeper in the case, if fact past the shoulder than my AR mag length 22 ARC. With 75 grain bullets in both I can't match the 22" barrel bolt gun velocities I can get with the 223 in my 16" 22 ARC gas gun. Not so sure a 223 bolt gun with a 16" barrel could match 16" barreled 22 ARC gas gun. However it is pretty close when it comes to the 88. When my 24" barrel arrives for the ARC I am pretty sure it will outrun anything a 223 can do in a bolt gun.

 

[FredH]

In a triplicate of 223AI, the fastest was 2780 and the slowest was 2600 from new.

Last load I chrono’d in the slowest rifle run over the Garmin was giving me 2789 in formed starline (on a warm day). Others are running 2770 on average.

How long can you load your 223AI?