.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Badlandoutdoors]

As I've been reading and trying to keep up with the 546 pages, I apologize if this question has been asked. What I am understanding and listening to some of the shoot 2 hunt stuff is that the low recoil of a .223 and the ability to put down follow up shots is one of the big advantages of smaller cartridges. @Formidilosus would shooting say a 6 Creedmoor over a .223 with a tmk or other similar match style bullet have its advantages in a hunting situation over a .223? I would assume yes in that you are shooting a slightly heavier bullet, say a 77tmk vs a 108 eldm. What I'm trying to understand is at what point does the recoil increase become a disadvantage over shooting a heaver grain projectile if they are both match style bullets for hunting? Obviously shooting a magnum has much more recoil, but I'm trying to think along the lines of lower recoiling cartridges.

 

[General RE LEE]

I’ve considered a .223 bolt trainer/hunting rifle, but I love my Howa Mini 6 ARC.

 

[omicron1792]

As I've been reading and trying to keep up with the 546 pages, I apologize if this question has been asked. What I am understanding and listening to some of the shoot 2 hunt stuff is that the low recoil of a .223 and the ability to put down follow up shots is one of the big advantages of smaller cartridges. @Formidilosus would shooting say a 6 Creedmoor over a .223 with a tmk or other similar match style bullet have its advantages in a hunting situation over a .223? I would assume yes in that you are shooting a slightly heavier bullet, say a 77tmk vs a 108 eldm. What I'm trying to understand is at what point does the recoil increase become a disadvantage over shooting a heaver grain projectile if they are both match style bullets for hunting? Obviously shooting a magnum has much more recoil, but I'm trying to think along the lines of lower recoiling cartridges.

If a 77TMK from 223 kills well, what would be the benefit of a “heavier bullet?”

If you plan to hunt a state that had a required minimum, get a 6 arc/creedmoor. Otherwise, the 223 does all you need it to do.

 

[atmat]

As I've been reading and trying to keep up with the 546 pages, I apologize if this question has been asked. What I am understanding and listening to some of the shoot 2 hunt stuff is that the low recoil of a .223 and the ability to put down follow up shots is one of the big advantages of smaller cartridges. @Formidilosus would shooting say a 6 Creedmoor over a .223 with a tmk or other similar match style bullet have its advantages in a hunting situation over a .223? I would assume yes in that you are shooting a slightly heavier bullet, say a 77tmk vs a 108 eldm. What I'm trying to understand is at what point does the recoil increase become a disadvantage over shooting a heaver grain projectile if they are both match style bullets for hunting? Obviously shooting a magnum has much more recoil, but I'm trying to think along the lines of lower recoiling cartridges.

I will say I primarily shoot both a 223 and a 6creed. And while the 6creed is by no means heavy recoiling, I do notice a difference which is exacerbated with volume shooting.

If I lived in a state allowing 223 to hunt, I’d use it over a 6creed.

 

[6creed]

Have you shot .556 out of that rifle? That is drastically different than what I’ve seen from the first few boxes (I would assume same lot as it just came out). I wouldn’t hesitate to call the owner of Bone Frog, very approachable guy.

Edit, just looked and don’t see lot #s on boxes.

I have shot XM193 5.56 ammo and it was fine. Bone Frog has a disclaimer about not using thier 5.56 in a 223. I thought it would be no different especially because I am loading my handload about .040 longer with the TMK.

 

[Bluumoon]

I have shot XM193 5.56 ammo and it was fine. Bone Frog has a disclaimer about not using thier 5.56 in a 223. I thought it would be no different especially because I am loading my handload about .040 longer with the TMK.

My sample is avg 2640 fps (18”), 20” is guess would be around 2700fps.

I had some Norma 77 gr that was blowing primers and bolt shrouds, shot good though

 

[Ajsomp]

I have shot XM193 5.56 ammo and it was fine. Bone Frog has a disclaimer about not using thier 5.56 in a 223. I thought it would be no different especially because I am loading my handload about .040 longer with the TMK.

223 CIP pressures are roughly the same as 5.56 SAAMI, which is why guys normally shoot no issue through tikkas (as they are using CIP pressures). But I’m not sure about the weatherby (obviously it was a little spicy in your case)

 

[Bluumoon]

I have shot XM193 5.56 ammo and it was fine. Bone Frog has a disclaimer about not using thier 5.56 in a 223. I thought it would be no different especially because I am loading my handload about .040 longer with the TMK.

I’ll pull out some random rounds from different boxes when I’m done w the Cold Bore Challenge. Will measure COAL and shoot past chrono.

 

[Choupique]

223 CIP pressures are roughly the same as 5.56 SAAMI, which is why guys normally shoot no issue through tikkas (as they are using CIP pressures)

The "issue" is that the chamber and throat dimensions are not the same between the two cartridges. I havent looked in a while but I think the .223 minimum leade is shorter which could drive higher chamber pressures for a 5.56 round in a .223 chamber.

 

[Thegman]

The "issue" is that the chamber and throat dimensions are not the same between the two cartridges. I havent looked in a while but I think the .223 minimum leade is shorter which could drive higher chamber pressures for a 5.56 round in a .223 chamber.

That's true, in general, but my Tikka 223 leade seems to be cut more like a 5.56 leade. It seems to be just as long as my various AR 5.56 barrel leades. Not sure how other 223 rifle leades are cut or if that's common in Tikkas in general. But if Tikkas are "fine" with 5.56 pressure loads, that might be one of the reasons.

 

[Choupique]

But if Tikkas are "fine" with 5.56 pressure loads, that might be one of the reasons.

Theyre fine with 5.56 pressure at 5.56 nominal pressures. They're fine with. 300 win mag at nominal .300 win mag pressure, which is higher and due to the case size exerting much more force on the frame and bolt face. A 5.56 in a .223 chamber can theoretically generate much higher than nominal if all the tolerances stack up wrong, which is probably what's happening with OPs rifle.

I wouldn't worry about the action on any modern production rifle short of having a barrel stuffed with mud.

 

[KHntr]

As I've been reading and trying to keep up with the 546 pages, I apologize if this question has been asked. What I am understanding and listening to some of the shoot 2 hunt stuff is that the low recoil of a .223 and the ability to put down follow up shots is one of the big advantages of smaller cartridges. @Formidilosus would shooting say a 6 Creedmoor over a .223 with a tmk or other similar match style bullet have its advantages in a hunting situation over a .223? I would assume yes in that you are shooting a slightly heavier bullet, say a 77tmk vs a 108 eldm. What I'm trying to understand is at what point does the recoil increase become a disadvantage over shooting a heaver grain projectile if they are both match style bullets for hunting? Obviously shooting a magnum has much more recoil, but I'm trying to think along the lines of lower recoiling cartridges.

You are misunderstanding the subtle difference between having the ability to send a follow up shot quickly and accurately, versus NEEDING to send a follow up shot.
I’ve been on the larger end of the spectrum animal wise when it comes to 22 centerfires, and a moose and an elk both got follow ups, but they didn’t need follow ups. There is an important distinction there.

I also killed quite a few elk and moose with mono’s that got follow ups shots, some needed them, some didn’t, but the ones that I could, got them. The ones shot with 88 ELD m’s from a 223AI, had more bullet trauma and faster kills than the ones shot with 264wm, 7wsm, 280AI, 300 Ultra and mono’s.

Think about that for a second in regards to your question. A 223 with 88’s kills stuff faster than big tough bullets from high recoil rifles. A 6 Creed isn’t gaining you anything over a 223 when viewed in that context.

By all means go 6 cm if you want, but you aren’t really going to gain any real world results.

 

[Harvey_NW]

By all means go 6 cm if you want, but you aren’t really going to gain any real world results.

No disagreement with anything else, but I think this might not be true as a blanket statement if you factor in longer ranges. The 6CM shooting 108/115's will have a distinguishable ballistic advantage over a SAAMI 223 shooting 88's.

 

[KHntr]

No disagreement with anything else, but I think this might not be true as a blanket statement if you factor in longer ranges. The 6CM shooting 108/115's will have a distinguishable ballistic advantage over a SAAMI 223 shooting 88's.

At the far fringes of range, sure. A glance at 6 creed factory ammo (I don’t have a 6 creed, so no actual numbers of my own to plug in) in JBM shows me it’ll carry an extra 30m of distance to an 1800fps impact over my 223AI’s.

But yeah, you gain some at the edges for sure.

 

[Thegman]

Theyre fine with 5.56 pressure at 5.56 nominal pressures. They're fine with. 300 win mag at nominal .300 win mag pressure, which is higher and due to the case size exerting much more force on the frame and bolt face. A 5.56 in a .223 chamber can theoretically generate much higher than nominal if all the tolerances stack up wrong, which is probably what's happening with OPs rifle.

I wouldn't worry about the action on any modern production rifle short of having a barrel stuffed with mud.

Agreed. Might pop a primer or some such, but not likely destroying a 223 bolt rifle with a 5.56 round.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

At the far fringes of range, sure. A glance at 6 creed factory ammo (I don’t have a 6 creed, so no actual numbers of my own to plug in) in JBM shows me it’ll carry an extra 30m of distance to an 1800fps impact over my 223AI’s.

But yeah, you gain some at the edges for sure.

Not to mention, at those far fringe ranges, the number of folks capable of “shooting the difference” to gain the “advantages ” of the higher BC, or even properly calling the wind to take advantage are incredibly slim.

 

[Gstew1930]

At the far fringes of range, sure. A glance at 6 creed factory ammo (I don’t have a 6 creed, so no actual numbers of my own to plug in) in JBM shows me it’ll carry an extra 30m of distance to an 1800fps impact over my 223AI’s.

But yeah, you gain some at the edges for sure.

What velocity & barrel length do you have? I've been considering this same thing

 

[darkhunter6.5]

I mistakenly shot two boxes of Frontier 556 68 gr in my 223. So far no problems. I will not be doing it again. I did notice the bolt was sticky when I was ejecting the empties.

 

[NWBLKTAIL]

Not to mention, at those far fringe ranges, the number of folks capable of “shooting the difference” to gain the “advantages ” of the higher BC, or even properly calling the wind to take advantage are incredibly slim.

I don’t think this gets enough consideration by most people trying to split the difference between cartridges/calibers
Seems most look at the numbers on a ballistic chart and then assume they are capable of taking advantage of those differences. When in reality it’s much harder to do when taking shots on those far fringe ranges. At least consistently or on demand.

 

[The Guide]

At the far fringes of range, sure. A glance at 6 creed factory ammo (I don’t have a 6 creed, so no actual numbers of my own to plug in) in JBM shows me it’ll carry an extra 30m of distance to an 1800fps impact over my 223AI’s.

But yeah, you gain some at the edges for sure.

How fast is your 223AI with the 88? When comparing my 22 ARC with the 88 ELDM (factory Hornady ammo @ 2698 fps) to my 6CM with the 105 Berger (factory Federal GMM @ 2893 fps, which is the most accurate load in my rifle) you get 150 yards further with the 6CM to 1800. When the 88 is compared to the 108 ELDM (factory Hornady ammo @ 2838 fps, second most accurate round in my rifle) you get 90+ yards further with the 108 ELDM over the 88 ELDM. These are both 22" barreled rifles suppressed.

Unless your 223AI is pushing the 88s faster than the 22 ARC, there is quite a bit of performance gained by the 6CM.

Jay