.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Thegman]

From my understanding, the 22 ARC has 4 to 5 grains greater case capacity at 34 grains vs 29 to 30 depending on what brand case the 223AI is made from. Not arguing, just curious since using those numbers the 22 ARC has 13 to 15 percent more case capacity.

Jay

I don't know much about the ARC, but my LC 5.56 brass will usually be around 30.6 grains capacity. AI-ing the case would put it around 32 grains, fwiw.

I guess even a bit more than that according to the chart @wind gypsy posted.

 

[nm.otter]

Compared with .223 Winchester:
.22 ARC has 16% more usable case capacity
.22 GT has 48% more
.22 Creedmoor has 75% more

 

[KHntr]

How fast is your 223AI with the 88?

In a triplicate of 223AI, the fastest was 2780 and the slowest was 2600 from new.

Last load I chrono’d in the slowest rifle run over the Garmin was giving me 2789 in formed starline (on a warm day). Others are running 2770 on average.

 

[FredH]

You are misunderstanding the subtle difference between having the ability to send a follow up shot quickly and accurately, versus NEEDING to send a follow up shot.
I’ve been on the larger end of the spectrum animal wise when it comes to 22 centerfires, and a moose and an elk both got follow ups, but they didn’t need follow ups. There is an important distinction there.

I also killed quite a few elk and moose with mono’s that got follow ups shots, some needed them, some didn’t, but the ones that I could, got them. The ones shot with 88 ELD m’s from a 223AI, had more bullet trauma and faster kills than the ones shot with 264wm, 7wsm, 280AI, 300 Ultra and mono’s.

Think about that for a second in regards to your question. A 223 with 88’s kills stuff faster than big tough bullets from high recoil rifles. A 6 Creed isn’t gaining you anything over a 223 when viewed in that context.

By all means go 6 cm if you want, but you aren’t really going to gain any real world results.

Comparing Mono's to soft .224 bullets is definitely comparing things that are not really comparable. I have shot maybe 5 game animals with monometal bullets. The early Barnes X bullets. Little to no expansion so you are right not much damage. I was severely pissed at Barnes for marketing such crap bullets. The newer ones are supposed to be much better but I am not buying any. Comparing larger cartridges to the 223AI why not go with similar bullets? You don't even have to go to monstrously larger cartridges. Say a 7-08 running a 145 gr Speer BTSP or a SST even. Both kill very quickly and do kick a bit harder than a 223AI. I am not so sure you could say an 88 gr. ELDM would kill any faster, create a larger wound channel or penetrate as deep. I do feel that if I needed to I could also get off a pretty accurate and quick follow up shot. I have several different bullets loaded up for my 223 and 22 ARC I am going to test this year and I do hope I can get results very near what I can get from my 260 Rem, 7-08 or 308 using good bullets designed to quickly bring down deer. In your example of large cartridges using mono's against smaller cartridges using fast opening bullets why not reverse it and say a 223 using mono's and larger cartridges using standard deer bullets. Pretty sure in that case the larger rounds would give far better performance.

 

[The Guide]

In a triplicate of 223AI, the fastest was 2780 and the slowest was 2600 from new.

Last load I chrono’d in the slowest rifle run over the Garmin was giving me 2789 in formed starline (on a warm day). Others are running 2770 on average.

NICE! That is definitely moving right along. It seems that you've definitely got a good system for the 88 ELDM. You're seeing 22 ARC speeds from your case. For people wanting to up their game in a 22 caliber but don't want the barrel life of a 22CM or to deal with wildcat rounds the 22 ARC is a happy medium. Using your 223AI speed of 2770 and my 6CM speed on the 108 of 2838, there is only a 50 yard terminal velocity gain with the 6CM. Given this information, the 6CM wouldn't be worth the gain in your situation.

Jay

 

[FredH]

From my understanding, the 22 ARC has 4 to 5 grains greater case capacity at 34 grains vs 29 to 30 depending on what brand case the 223AI is made from. Not arguing, just curious since using those numbers the 22 ARC has 13 to 15 percent more case capacity.

Jay

If case capacity is being measured to the mouth of the case that is fine for comparison. However the difference is going to be greater when you measure it with a bullet seated. Loaded to mag length my 22 ARC has a lot less bullet down in the case. My 223 bolt gun easily handles 2.340 COAL. This still leaves the base of the 88 gr. ELDM deeper in the case, if fact past the shoulder than my AR mag length 22 ARC. With 75 grain bullets in both I can't match the 22" barrel bolt gun velocities I can get with the 223 in my 16" 22 ARC gas gun. Not so sure a 223 bolt gun with a 16" barrel could match 16" barreled 22 ARC gas gun. However it is pretty close when it comes to the 88. When my 24" barrel arrives for the ARC I am pretty sure it will outrun anything a 223 can do in a bolt gun.

 

[FredH]

In a triplicate of 223AI, the fastest was 2780 and the slowest was 2600 from new.

Last load I chrono’d in the slowest rifle run over the Garmin was giving me 2789 in formed starline (on a warm day). Others are running 2770 on average.

How long can you load your 223AI?

 

[KHntr]

How long can you load your 223AI?

No clue at the moment. I’m not at home till tomorrow. I want to say that I’m at 2.435” in the Montana, but thats just happenstance when I was shooting up some leftover rounds from before the rebarrel and they shot spectacularly well, so I haven’t bothered to check how far I could seat them out.

 

[KHntr]

Comparing Mono's to soft .224 bullets is definitely comparing things that are not really comparable. I have shot maybe 5 game animals with monometal bullets. The early Barnes X bullets. Little to no expansion so you are right not much damage. I was severely pissed at Barnes for marketing such crap bullets. The newer ones are supposed to be much better but I am not buying any. Comparing larger cartridges to the 223AI why not go with similar bullets? You don't even have to go to monstrously larger cartridges. Say a 7-08 running a 145 gr Speer BTSP or a SST even. Both kill very quickly and do kick a bit harder than a 223AI. I am not so sure you could say an 88 gr. ELDM would kill any faster, create a larger wound channel or penetrate as deep. I do feel that if I needed to I could also get off a pretty accurate and quick follow up shot. I have several different bullets loaded up for my 223 and 22 ARC I am going to test this year and I do hope I can get results very near what I can get from my 260 Rem, 7-08 or 308 using good bullets designed to quickly bring down deer. In your example of large cartridges using mono's against smaller cartridges using fast opening bullets why not reverse it and say a 223 using mono's and larger cartridges using standard deer bullets. Pretty sure in that case the larger rounds would give far better performance.

But why? I know mono’s aren’t spectacular in anything, as I shot a pile of critters with them over a decade plus of time, in 45/50/53/55/62/120/150/168/180/200 gr weights.

Why would I go to a 7/08 with a softer bullet versus a 223 with mono’s? Why would I go to a larger cartridge period?
I killed a lot of bulls with 150/168/180/200 gr mono’s, and 88’s kill bulls faster with less recoil and less muzzle blast and still break shoulders. Why would I go to anything bigger? What would it gain me? I’m a 600m and in killer, so I don’t need the added reach of a 6.5/7/300.

To be fair, I did have a dedicated killing rifle built for this season in a much larger cartridge period, but it’s still shooting 88’s.

 

[Bluumoon]

I have shot XM193 5.56 ammo and it was fine. Bone Frog has a disclaimer about not using thier 5.56 in a 223. I thought it would be no different especially because I am loading my handload about .040 longer with the TMK.

I pulled 10 rounds out of 9 different boxes. COAL was less than 2.260 on all. Shooting for 18” Tikka

 

[nettereo16]

Any Fed Fusion 223 kills? Midway had blems for a good price so I bought a bunch to load, was happy when I used factory loadings in 308/3006

 

[omicron1792]

Any Fed Fusion 223 kills? Midway had blems for a good price so I bought a bunch to load, was happy when I used factory loadings in 308/3006

Tons. Always listed as one of best 3-4 bullets for 223.

 

[nm.otter]

If case capacity is being measured to the mouth of the case that is fine for comparison. However the difference is going to be greater when you measure it with a bullet seated.

The figures I posted above are derived using case dimensions from the base of the neck back.

 

[FredH]

The figures I posted above are derived using case dimensions from the base of the neck back.

In both cartridges the base of an 88 gr. ELDM will protrude some into the case body, much worse with the 223 unless a really long OAL is possible. The 22 ARC at standard Mag length still has the same issue just not as bad.

 

[FredH]

No clue at the moment. I’m not at home till tomorrow. I want to say that I’m at 2.435” in the Montana, but thats just happenstance when I was shooting up some leftover rounds from before the rebarrel and they shot spectacularly well, so I haven’t bothered to check how far I could seat them out.

I was considering building a 223AI or for a while a 22-204. Of course this to give the heavier bullets more speed. But then logic stepped in and instead of chasing that rabbit down a hole I figured if I needed more why not use one of my 243 rifles for deer or any of my other rifles for that matter. I shoot between 3 and 8 deer a year depending on how much time I have for travel. My 223 and 22ARC this year will get the usual doe or two but when looking to fill my buck tags I use cartridges with the option of more penetration while still providing good wound channels. There is nothing a 223 AI, 223 or 22 ARC can do that a 7-08 loaded with good bullets can't do as well or better especially in east Texas. I find the 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip to be without peer.

 

[omicron1792]

I was considering building a 223AI or for a while a 22-204. Of course this to give the heavier bullets more speed. But then logic stepped in and instead of chasing that rabbit down a hole I figured if I needed more why not use one of my 243 rifles for deer or any of my other rifles for that matter. I shoot between 3 and 8 deer a year depending on how much time I have for travel. My 223 and 22ARC this year will get the usual doe or two but when looking to fill my buck tags I use cartridges with the option of more penetration while still providing good wound channels. There is nothing a 223 AI, 223 or 22 ARC can do that a 7-08 loaded with good bullets can't do as well or better especially in east Texas. I find the 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip to be without peer.

At least you’re consistent.

 

[nm.otter]

In both cartridges the base of an 88 gr. ELDM will protrude some into the case body, much worse with the 223 unless a really long OAL is possible. The 22 ARC at standard Mag length still has the same issue just not as bad.

This is part of what's piqued my curiosity about .22 GT. The Nose column below shows the available length from the front of the neck to the tip of the bullet:

 

[FredH]

This is part of what's piqued my curiosity about .22 GT. The Nose column below shows the available length from the front of the neck to the tip of the bullet:
View attachment 899560

I like the 22 GT. Might be a neat toy.

 

[Schmo]

This is part of what's piqued my curiosity about .22 GT. The Nose column below shows the available length from the front of the neck to the tip of the bullet:
View attachment 899577

How much faster is a 22 GT over a 22 BR?

 

[Badlandoutdoors]

You are misunderstanding the subtle difference between having the ability to send a follow up shot quickly and accurately, versus NEEDING to send a follow up shot.
I’ve been on the larger end of the spectrum animal wise when it comes to 22 centerfires, and a moose and an elk both got follow ups, but they didn’t need follow ups. There is an important distinction there.

I also killed quite a few elk and moose with mono’s that got follow ups shots, some needed them, some didn’t, but the ones that I could, got them. The ones shot with 88 ELD m’s from a 223AI, had more bullet trauma and faster kills than the ones shot with 264wm, 7wsm, 280AI, 300 Ultra and mono’s.

Think about that for a second in regards to your question. A 223 with 88’s kills stuff faster than big tough bullets from high recoil rifles. A 6 Creed isn’t gaining you anything over a 223 when viewed in that context.

By all means go 6 cm if you want, but you aren’t really going to gain any real world results.

Thank you for this response. I hadn’t thought about it this way.

I don’t have a .223 currently but do have a 22 creed. In this case my 22creed would suffice and no need for the 6 creed then? Is there an issue with the velocities I get out of my CM and match bullets? Right night the 77 tmk has a MV of 3080.


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