.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Tmac]

What does that have to do with anatomy?

It’s just an animal. They are killed without issue every year by pointed sticks.

As I said in my post, in terms of what it takes to kill them nothing. The “what it takes to kill them” part would seem to cover anatomy, method, etc. Yes?

It is just an animal, yep. Pointed sticks kill them all the time, for sure. So do rifle bullets. None of which is my point.

But my point was about what one may have to deal with should it be required to follow up on a wounded one. That’s the difference compared to most NA game. You asked what made them different, that is my answer. So I’d suggest in that respect they are very different than most NA animals. So that’s the difference I was alluding to, maybe I did not make that clear.

 

[Formidilosus]

As I said in my post, in terms of what it takes to kill them nothing. The “what it takes to kill them” part would seem to cover anatomy, method, etc. Yes?

It is just an animal, yep. Pointed sticks kill them all the time, for sure. So do rifle bullets. None of which is my point.

But my point was about what one may have to deal with should it be required to follow up on a wounded one. That’s the difference compared to most NA game. You asked what made them different, that is my answer. So I’d suggest in that respect they are very different than most NA animals. So that’s the difference I was alluding to, maybe I did not make that clear.

Ah. I understand what you meant now.
.

 

[Tmac]

Ah. I understand what you meant now.
.

Ya, maybe I should have added in temperament. Kind of where I was going with the difference if wounded.

 

[JackButler]

Other than a bit of extra thickness, there isn't. Muscle, bone, fur, skin, etc. Same as any other animal, just scaled up a bit.

There’s nothing magical of course. It’s just there’s a lot MORE muscle bone etc to get through than a whitetail or elk. Plus, if you don’t get it right the consequences are significantly higher. But there’s no question if you shoot anything in the right place with a .223 it will die.

 

[Formidilosus]

There’s nothing magical of course. It’s just there’s a lot MORE muscle bone etc to get through than a whitetail or elk.

No there’s not. Bears are predators, and predators are light boned. Bear “muscle” isn’t any tougher than “deer” muscle.

 

[JackButler]

No there’s not. Bears are predators, and predators are light boned. Bear “muscle” isn’t any tougher than “deer” muscle.

Nobody said it was. There’s just a lot more of it. Hence the amount of muscle you need to penetrate to get to vitals is more.

 

[Formidilosus]

Nobody said it was. There’s just a lot more of it. Hence the amount of muscle you need to penetrate to get to vitals is more.

How much more?

 

[roosiebull]

roosiebull I think yes and no.

First, if an elk runs 100 yards in a semi open area that is no big deal. You probably won't think of it as much different than a DRT elk. A grizzly that runs 100 yards is going to get your blood pumping because you either have a gun fight on your hands or you are frantically trying to finish it off wondering if you'll have a rodeo in the alders. Same reason why lots of people hunt elk with bows but doing the same thing to a grizzly is considered rolling the dice a bit.

I get that, and have a good grasp on that type of situation, I have been in a position with a large black bear that a poor shot was made on, and it was in brush you couldn’t see 5 yds in… he growled, I heard brush crashing, and then saw brush moving coming at me but couldn’t see anything but flashes of black as he approached, I didn’t look through the scope, just pointed the muzzle and shot, at spitting distance and luckily that turned him, and I finally saw him on the other side of the brush choked ditch and ended that situation… that scenario had nothing to do with cartridge size, and everything to do with the initial shot

I’m very picky with my initial shot on a bear for that reason, and black or brown bear doesn’t matter, if you have a bear wounded in the brush, it’s a bad situation, and a mistake was made on the initial shot, and a 30 cal accubond doesn’t bail you out of a bad shot… a 6.5 match bullet probably wouldn’t either, but it would be a better scenario.

More than any other critter, I want a soft bullet for bear (that wouldn’t change with bear species) that violently disrupts

After the scenario above, I’m even more picky with shot placement on bear, I know the only way to avoid drama is a shot angle that’s easy to tell where to shoot. I wouldn’t take a frontal chest shot most likely, I want a stationary broadside or slightly quartered shot, and I don’t care if I have to let one walk, I like hunting bear a lot more than killing bear, I’m never desperate to get a shot.

If I kill a bear this year, it will be a 77gr tmk, and would have no issue shooting a brown bear with the same bullet, it makes a lot bigger wound than an arrow, and if I ever get the chance to hunt them, it would be with my bow, with a large cut head like a German kinetic XL, because I know penetration wouldn’t be an issue

 

[roosiebull]

Nobody said it was. There’s just a lot more of it. Hence the amount of muscle you need to penetrate to get to vitals is more.

Bear vitals aren’t protected by muscle, it’s thin hide, fat, and ribs unless you take a hard quarter to shot, but a broadside shot on any bear, where the lungs sit, there is hardly any muscle, if you are shooting through a lot of muscle, you shot too far forward

 

[swavescatter]

Listen fellas - only way to settle this is to send me to kill a buffalo.

Zelle/Venmo/PayPal please.

 

[Pharmseller]

I’m in.

 

[JackButler]

How much more?

O thought you were the expert? I’ve cut up many deer and skinned a number of grizzlies. I’d estimate at least 3 times as much muscle on a griz than a whitetail minimum.

 

[roosiebull]

The potential aggression of a grizzly or coastal brown bear is what sets them apart. When they're hurt and have decided to take their anger out on you thats where the magic usually comes from. They can be quite dangerous, and move extremely quickly. They are faster than a horse, and can be on you really abruptly. Something moving that fast right at you can be hard to kill if you can't maintain control of yourself and shoot under pressure. I ran into a grizzly on a black bear hunt a few years back. I was about 30 feet away from it. It's a sobering experience. Fortunately nothing came of it, but I was done hunting for the day after that.

What does that have to do with cartridge choice? The popular combo is a big cartridge and hard bullet for max penetration

Making a good initial shot is the most important aspect, and ability for quick follow up shots is a benefit… cartridge choice may matter there, but bigger is better would be counter intuitive in that regard

 

[JackButler]

Bear vitals aren’t protected by muscle, it’s thin hide, fat, and ribs unless you take a hard quarter to shot, but a broadside shot on any bear, where the lungs sit, there is hardly any muscle, if you are shooting through a lot of muscle, you shot too far forward

Is the point of this to try to say grizzlies are not significantly different than whitetail as far as killing them? I mean if you shot both with even a 30-06 you’d know. That’s not to say the 223 can’t do the job, it can.

 

[Maverick1]

Do/did you guys actually think there is something special about grizzlies or brown bears that makes them different than every other species?

 

[Thegman]

O thought you were the expert? I’ve cut up many deer and skinned a number of grizzlies. I’d estimate at least 3 times as much muscle on a griz than a whitetail minimum.

I think what roosiebull is saying is that if you're heart/lung shooting a bear broadside, you're not shooting through much muscle. You're shooting through the ribcage, further back than you would a deer.

He's 100% correct about shooting a bear too far forward. A shot that would end up with a dead deer can end with an unrecovered bear. Twice I've killed bears a couple of weeks after I'd hit and lost them from hits too far forward; I'm a slow learner apparently.

They were both alive and feeding when I eventually killed them. I didn’t know either were the bears I'd lost until field dressing them and finding my own bullet in them, broken shoulder and all.

(To add, I've shot both with a 30-06. I've not noticed any appreciable difference in their dying with correctly placed broadside shots)

 

[Formidilosus]

O thought you were the expert? I’ve cut up many deer and skinned a number of grizzlies. I’d estimate at least 3 times as much muscle on a griz than a whitetail minimum.

So… how much muscle is that, in inches? Three times a deer?

 

[slatebuilder]

24 minute mark.

Bear Advice With A Master Alaskan Guide

Podcast Episode · Ron Spomer Outdoors · 04/17/2024 · 57m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[FCCDerek]

What does that have to do with cartridge choice? The popular combo is a big cartridge and hard bullet for max penetration

Making a good initial shot is the most important aspect, and ability for quick follow up shots is a benefit… cartridge choice may matter there, but bigger is better would be counter intuitive in that regard

Did I say that had anything to do with cartridge selection? It has to do with the shooters ability to make aimed, accurate shots under pressure, regardless of cartridge selection. Essentially any rifle round out there with a proper bullet choice will kill a bear, and will penetrate the venerable grizzly skull, that many folks think is the equivalent to an Abrams tank. I was saying people need to change their mindset when hunting an apex predator. They're aggressive, fast, and dangerous. Don't go out with the mindset like you're hunting whitetail. Practice shooting quickly and efficiently under stress. If you never do that, and find yourself needing to do that during a hunt you are gonna be in a bad spot. Be familiar with bear anatomy, as has been said many times, you need to aim differently for bear vitals vice deer vitals.

 

[fwafwow]

24 minute mark.

Bear Advice With A Master Alaskan Guide

Podcast Episode · Ron Spomer Outdoors · 04/17/2024 · 57m

podcasts.apple.com

Are you saying that’s authoritative what those two guys are saying for those few minutes? It’s clearly not in line with this thread