.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Formidilosus]

Do/did you guys actually think there is something special about grizzlies or brown bears that makes them different than every other species?

 

[FCCDerek]

Do/did you guys actually think there is something special about grizzlies or brown bears that makes them different than every other species?

Other than a bit of extra thickness, there isn't. Muscle, bone, fur, skin, etc. Same as any other animal, just scaled up a bit.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Nothing extra magical. In the vital areas some extra hair, extra fat, thicker skin, denser rib bones.

Nothing worth getting worked up over or needed a .400 Ultra Super Heavy Duty Magnum™

 

[FCCDerek]

Nothing extra magical. In the vital areas some extra hair, extra fat, thicker skin, denser rib bones.

Nothing worth getting worked up over or needed a .400 Ultra Super Heavy Duty Magnum™

Like other bears, the more important factor is anatomical knowledge of where their vitals are located. Put a properly constructed bullet there at sufficient speed, they die pretty quickly.

 

[Luke S]

Grizzly/brown bears are flesh and blood but I was wondering about getting adequate penatration because their chests tend to be more rounded compared to a similar sized ungulate.
Theoretically I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if a given bullet could fully pentrate the vitals of an elk or smaller grizzly but run out of steam on a really big brown bear to the point that it's doing significantly less damage to the second lung. That would still kill obviously but maybe not as fast.
I hope we get a good autopsy report. A 223 fully punching both lungs would be the final thing for me. A failure would just mean we found the ceiling for a .223.

 

[roosiebull]

Do/did you guys actually think there is something special about grizzlies or brown bears that makes them different than every other species?

I would assume that a brown bear is more soft than an average cow elk, and I have no idea why they are spoken of as some hard to kill creature. A huge black bear is softer than a blacktail, I always figured brown/grizz were a scaled up version, and the vitals on a bear, being where they are, make them an even softer target

I do know a coastal brown bear skull is nothing special, they don’t have thick hide, and relatively small lung capacity for their size, but people sure like to make them sound bulletproof… my guess is that there is a history of people using large cartridges with hard bullets, with narrow wound channels making said large cartridges seem almost not enough

And they have big ass teeth and claws

 

[Luke S]

roosiebull I think yes and no.

First, if an elk runs 100 yards in a semi open area that is no big deal. You probably won't think of it as much different than a DRT elk. A grizzly that runs 100 yards is going to get your blood pumping because you either have a gun fight on your hands or you are frantically trying to finish it off wondering if you'll have a rodeo in the alders. Same reason why lots of people hunt elk with bows but doing the same thing to a grizzly is considered rolling the dice a bit.

Another factor is that bear anatomy is a bit different than a deer's. Its possible to hit a bear, break a shoulder and not kill it because you missed the vitals completely. I have heard multiple stories of that happening in Alaska. That is a shooter problem not a caliber.

So yes, grizzlies/brown bears get mythologized but there is some valid concern there. I'm anxious to learn more about this bear and hopefully hit one myself with a smaller rifle and compare.

 

[FCCDerek]

I would assume that a brown bear is more soft than an average cow elk, and I have no idea why they are spoken of as some hard to kill creature. A huge black bear is softer than a blacktail, I always figured brown/grizz were a scaled up version, and the vitals on a bear, being where they are, make them an even softer target

I do know a coastal brown bear skull is nothing special, they don’t have thick hide, and relatively small lung capacity for their size, but people sure like to make them sound bulletproof… my guess is that there is a history of people using large cartridges with hard bullets, with narrow wound channels making said large cartridges seem almost not enough

And they have big ass teeth and claws

The potential aggression of a grizzly or coastal brown bear is what sets them apart. When they're hurt and have decided to take their anger out on you thats where the magic usually comes from. They can be quite dangerous, and move extremely quickly. They are faster than a horse, and can be on you really abruptly. Something moving that fast right at you can be hard to kill if you can't maintain control of yourself and shoot under pressure. I ran into a grizzly on a black bear hunt a few years back. I was about 30 feet away from it. It's a sobering experience. Fortunately nothing came of it, but I was done hunting for the day after that.

 

[Formidilosus]

Grizzly/brown bears are flesh and blood but I was wondering about getting adequate penatration because their chests tend to be more rounded compared to a similar sized ungulate.
Theoretically I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if a given bullet could fully pentrate the vitals of an elk or smaller grizzly but run out of steam on a really big brown bear to the point that it's doing significantly less damage to the second lung. That would still kill obviously but maybe not as fast.

Negative. While a big bear might be thicker inside the chest cavity, that’s all lungs- which is just this side of tougher than air. Lung tissue doesn’t stop bullets- hide, muscle, and bone does. In that regard, the largest bear is about like an elk for a bullet. Maybe less.

I hope we get a good autopsy report. A 223 fully punching both lungs would be the final thing for me. A failure would just mean we found the ceiling for a .223.

Alaskans kill the smack out of brown and grizzly bears every year with 223’s. Usually with crap 55gr FMJ’s.

 

[Formidilosus]

my guess is that there is a history of people using large cartridges with hard bullets, with narrow wound channels making said large cartridges seem almost not enough

Exactly. Just like people do with elk.

 

[9.3koolaid]

Exactly. Just like people do with elk.

and goats to a crazy extent

 

[Formidilosus]

and goats to a crazy extent

Very much so.

 

[Luke S]

Form I don't disagree about the chest of a bear being mostly lung.

I guess a better statement is this. To really convince everyone a .223 works we need to see a large bear hit in the chest cavity with an adequate wound channel, probably stopping just under the far side hide. That would put the argument to rest more clearly.

 

[FCCDerek]

Form I don't disagree about the chest of a bear being mostly lung.

I guess a better statement is this. To really convince everyone a .223 works we need to see a large bear hit in the chest cavity with an adequate wound channel, probably stopping just under the far side hide. That would put the argument to rest more clearly.

I figured a big dead brown bear that died from two shots from a 223 should be a good sign.

 

[Luke S]

Yes it's a good sign, assuming no new information that makes it sound sub optimal. I just want the full details. I'd love to see pictures. BTW the bear in my avatar is a similar size. I might have some wound pictures from it somewhere (.375). Could be a fun comparison.

 

[Grundy53]

Do/did you guys actually think there is something special about grizzlies or brown bears that makes them different than every other species?

Just the potential repercussions if you mess up.

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[Dbevans]

Went for a snow machine ride after work and found some tracks. Followed the tracks a mile til we saw the bear climbing a hill. Rushed over there got under 200 yards. 1st shot high shoulder to break the shoulder blade and also get the lungs. The bear fell and started rolling down the hill, got up was biting at its shoulder. Started up the hill so I shot it again at maybe 200 yards heart lung got up over the hill so we climbed up and found it dead at the top. The bear is between 8-8.5 feet. Ive seen bears drop and die in there spot with 1 shot and some take 5-10 heart lungs and still run.


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Hornady black fmjs didn’t take any pictures because it was getting late


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[Tmac]

Do/did you guys actually think there is something special about grizzlies or brown bears that makes them different than every other species?

In terms of what it takes to kill them no. In terms of what can happen if you make a bad shot, yes. I’d rather follow-up on a wounded elk than a wounded grizz. That said, folks have managed to be killed by whitetail deer.

 

[Formidilosus]

In terms of what it takes to kill them no. In terms of what can happen if you make a bad shot, yes. I’d rather follow-up on a wounded elk than a wounded grizz. That said, folks have managed to be killed by whitetail deer.

What does that have to do with anatomy?

It’s just an animal. They are killed without issue every year by pointed sticks.

 

[BLJ]

I’m guessing 62 grain FMJ.
From an AR15.

Hornady black fmjs didn’t take any pictures because it was getting late


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Called it.