.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Lawnboi]

I’m glad ‘gunwriters’ are no longer relevant. Now if we can do the same with the YouTubers we can get some real information out there.

Before everyone gets upset there are some decent video/writers out there.

 

[ElPollo]

24 minute mark.

Bear Advice With A Master Alaskan Guide

Podcast Episode · Ron Spomer Outdoors · 04/17/2024 · 57m

podcasts.apple.com

I’m sure Spomer is a nice guy, but what he does is distribute dogma and opinion that is rarely based on rigorous testing.

 

[Tell]

So… how much muscle is that, in inches? Three times a deer?

I don’t know the answer to this but I’d like to. I’m guessing 4 inches to get from hide to inside of the chest cavity broadside. Not through the shoulder, which would be more, but apparently not enough more to matter to hornady black 62s.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’m sure Spomer is a nice guy, but what he does is distribute dogma and opinion that is rarely based on rigorous testing.

Yes, but that isn’t Phil. Phil uses a 30/06 as a “back up” rifle often. 25:44 is the key time in that podcast.

 

[slatebuilder]

Are you saying that’s authoritative what those two guys are saying for those few minutes? It’s clearly not in line with this thread.

Nope, no appeal to authority at all. I’m a 223 lover stirring the pot for entertainment purposes.

 

[ElPollo]

Yes, but that isn’t Phil. Phil uses a 30/06 as a “back up” rifle often. 25:44 is the key time in that podcast.

Yeah, I listened to that one last week. Phil is the guy who killed a coastal brownie with a compact 9mm. If I remember right, he was talking about how Alaskans kill bears and moose all the time with 223s and FMJs. I think he went on to say he didn’t recommend that and his top recommendation for rifles to bring to AK was a 30/06 or whatever you use at home and shoot a lot. My point about Ron is just that he spends so much time talking about kinetic energy in every darned video and about the 1000/1500 foot pound rule. That said Ron has also talked about taking deer with a 22-250 AI with big bullets, so he isn’t all bad.

I think this discussion about big bears is quite funny. It has no bearing (bad pun) on the majority of Norte Americanos who live outside the range of the Big Angry Bear and most of us will never hunt or see one.

However the fact that Phil says Alaskans kill them all the time with 223 FMJs and that the guy who posted here killed one with two 223 FMJs aught to remind us all that bullet placement trumps both caliber and bullet construction.

 

[Odd1out]

One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned about bears is they slow their heart beat to 3 a minute when they hibernate. 20 seconds with zero blood pressure is a long time to run away or toward you. They are scary fast in short bursts and stack on adrenaline with fight or flight response. Regardless of what cartridge or arrow you use. Make the first shot count and the following shots must too. Lastly bears pack the engine compartment farther back the most people think. My 2 cents worth

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

 

[z987k]

Coastal Alaskan Brown bear. 223 2 shots


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was waiting for this.

 

[Southernfried]

Please, Please excuse my ignorance with my question. I have never ever hunted a bear, seen a bear, live near a bear in the wild any where withing 250+miles of me. So I know NOTHING, about hunting or killing a bear. Keep that in mind with my question. The only experience I have of even shooting at a "bear" was 40 years ago shooting 3D archery tournaments, I had a terrible, terrible time then of finding the "vitals" of a bear in a tournament. I thought then, and still do lol, so my question. Why cant ya just shoot a bear in the head? Not have to worry about missing the heart/lung area, not mess up any meat, just put one in the ear hole? Thanks in advance.

 

[Pharmseller]

Are you good enough to shoot the most mobile part of the animal in a roughly 5”x5” target?

I’m nowhere near good enough.

 

[Maverick1]

Please, Please excuse my ignorance with my question. I have never ever hunted a bear, seen a bear, live near a bear in the wild any where withing 250+miles of me. So I know NOTHING, about hunting or killing a bear. Keep that in mind with my question. The only experience I have of even shooting at a "bear" was 40 years ago shooting 3D archery tournaments, I had a terrible, terrible time then of finding the "vitals" of a bear in a tournament. I thought then, and still do lol, so my question. Why cant ya just shoot a bear in the head? Not have to worry about missing the heart/lung area, not mess up any meat, just put one in the ear hole? Thanks in advance.

Ear hole? Very small target. Surrounded by dense bone. Bears have fairly normal kill zone/vitals, especially broadside, which is a much bigger target than an “ear hole”.

Probably also a similar reason why aiming for the vitals is preferred over head shots for most other animals.

 

[RockAndSage]

Ear hole? Very small target. Surrounded by dense bone. Bears have fairly normal kill zone/vitals, especially broadside, which is a much bigger target than an “ear hole”.

Probably also a similar reason why aiming for the vitals is preferred over head shots for most other animals.

For years, the world-record grizzly bear kill was held by a woman who used a .22, aiming between the eye and the ear - which generally centers you on the brain. The sides of the brain case are often relatively thin and more or less vertical, while the front is both thick and angled. That angle works like tank armor being angled - when material is at an angle, not only does it tend to deflect projectiles, it actually creates more mass to be penetrated. You can see the bullet hole in the skull here:

Twin’s record kill revisited -

Cree woman kills giant grizzly bear in 1953 Chris CleggSouth Peace News It happened in 1953 but it’s still making news. Bella Twin’s killing of a world record grizzly bear on May 10, 1957 with her Cooey Act #1 .22 is featured in the May-June edition of Bear Hunting magazine. The article is...

www.southpeacenews.com

 

[Castle Rock]

Are you good enough to shoot the most mobile part of the animal in a roughly 5”x5” target?

Head shooting seems to be frowned upon in the US, not so much south of the equator

 

[Maverick1]

For years, the world-record grizzly bear kill was held by a woman who used a .22, aiming between the eye and the ear - which generally centers you on the brain. The sides of the brain case are often relatively thin and more or less vertical, while the front is both thick and angled. That angle works like tank armor being angled - when material is at an angle, not only does it tend to deflect projectiles, it actually creates more mass to be penetrated. You can see the bullet hole in the skull here:

Twin’s record kill revisited -

Cree woman kills giant grizzly bear in 1953 Chris CleggSouth Peace News It happened in 1953 but it’s still making news. Bella Twin’s killing of a world record grizzly bear on May 10, 1957 with her Cooey Act #1 .22 is featured in the May-June edition of Bear Hunting magazine. The article is...

www.southpeacenews.com

I've read that before as well. If it worked for her, why don't you "give it a shot" - with the .223 - in the ear hole. Let us all know how that works out for you.

 

[RockAndSage]

I've read that before as well. If it worked for her, why don't you "give it a shot" - with the .223 - in the ear hole. Let us all know how that works out for you.

She waited for her shot from the side - and didn't aim for the ear hole. She aimed between the ear and the eye, and punched a bullet right into its brain. About the only land mammal a .223 in that spot wouldn't work on would be an elephant or a cape buffalo. And I sure as hell wouldn't have advised Bella Twin to do what she did - but it worked, drop-dead, lights-out. It's instructive, even if not advisable.

 

[Southernfried]

In the "ear hole" is an old baseball jargon for hitting someone in the head. Guess I should have just said head and not ear hole......Makes sense based on what has been said, how the vitals are so much bigger than the head and the hardness of the skull. Thanks for clearing that up. I had no idea their head was that hard. Thanks again.

 

[Pharmseller]

Head shooting seems to be frowned upon in the US, not so much south of the equator

Maybe they’re better shots down south.

 

[Mountainrancher]

In regards do Alaskans killing bears with 223 fmjs regularly how is the wound channel being created? Is the bullet tumbling? Is it traveling fast enough that it causes fragmentation despite being an fmj? It seems kind of contradictory to this thread that a 22 cal fmj could create a large enough wound channel to be very effective on anything.

 

[Formidilosus]

In regards do Alaskans killing bears with 223 fmjs regularly how is the wound channel being created? Is the bullet tumbling? Is it traveling fast enough that it causes fragmentation despite being an fmj? It seems kind of contradictory to this thread that a 22 cal fmj could create a large enough wound channel to be very effective on anything.

This is the problem with people not understanding terminal ballistics, repeating what they’ve read or been told, and believing in mythical creatures (not inferring you).

Common 55gr and 62gr FMJ are velocity dependent for fragmentation,have low mass for fragmentation, and in general exhibit variable behavior in tissue. However, they can and will kill well at higher impact velocities. Their common behavior inside of tissue is to penetrate 2-6”, yaw (tumble) and if at sufficient velocity- fragment at the cannelure.

I would rather have an AR15 with FMJ’s in a “bear charge”, than any cartridge or caliber bolt action.

 

[Luke S]

We've been talking about bears so much I thought maybe I should start a thread about that topic to keep this one focused on .223s. Short version. Bear skulls, shoulders etc are nothing special. The only logical reason to think of grizzly rifles and elk rifle different is that grizzly bears can fight back.

What does it take to kill a grizzly?

There has been such a focus on bears in the .223 thread I thought I’d start a thread on what I think it takes to actually kill a bear. I am not a guide, other people have killed more bears then me. But I have killed lots of black bears, I mentored other hunters to their first bear, and I’ve...

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