.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[kkp005]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

I’ve read the whole thread and jumped on the 77gr tmk bandwagon. Shoot them in a 18” tikka 223 and a 18” tikka 22-250. Even have trijicon and maven scopes now (this forum is expensive for me). It’s a mean little green bullet and a kills remarkably well…. But like you, I’m in Texas & where I live you don’t get follow up shots. For whacking hogs and coyotes I grab something that shoots 77gr TMK’s 99% of the time. If I’m shooting deer, I’ve gotten to where I go with my 6creed. It still has minimal recoil but the 105gr hornady bthp damages a lot of tissue and manages to exit leaving good blood trails

 

[wind gypsy]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

I think there’s probably a pretty good correlation in energy to tissue damage given similar velocity and bullet construction but if a deer can run a certain distance with its lungs turned to jello anyway, are you really gaining anything?

 

[Jake Leibke]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

From my experience with a 22 cm and the 77 tmk this past fall they are more “explosive” at higher velocities. I think I posted a few pics in the 22 cm thread. Meaning with a faster delivery system at those ranges damage will be more than with a slower delivery system.

We killed a few with the 223 and 77 tmk as well and really have zero complaints with that as well.


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[sturner88]

I’ve read the whole thread and jumped on the 77gr tmk bandwagon. Shoot them in a 18” tikka 223 and a 18” tikka 22-250. Even have trijicon and maven scopes now (this forum is expensive for me). It’s a mean little green bullet and a kills remarkably well…. But like you, I’m in Texas & where I live you don’t get follow up shots. For whacking hogs and coyotes I grab something that shoots 77gr TMK’s 99% of the time. If I’m shooting deer, I’ve gotten to where I go with my 6creed. It still has minimal recoil but the 105gr hornady bthp damages a lot of tissue and manages to exit leaving good blood trails

it’s a fascinating concept with incredible amounts of evidence of effectiveness. I’ve gone from 223 to 6.5 grendel to 308 after killing Hundreds of hogs on our ranch prioritizing short tracking jobs. I’ve been impressed with the effectiveness of the 308 but much prefer the shootability of the 223 and grendel.

Many hogs are killed from a gator on quick snap-shots where you often dont have time to set up a steady shot from a bag. My experience says the 308 “kills better” but, again, the evidence presented in this thread is undeniable.

 

[Elite]

I’ve read the whole thread and jumped on the 77gr tmk bandwagon. Shoot them in a 18” tikka 223 and a 18” tikka 22-250. Even have trijicon and maven scopes now (this forum is expensive for me). It’s a mean little green bullet and a kills remarkably well…. But like you, I’m in Texas & where I live you don’t get follow up shots. For whacking hogs and coyotes I grab something that shoots 77gr TMK’s 99% of the time. If I’m shooting deer, I’ve gotten to where I go with my 6creed. It still has minimal recoil but the 105gr hornady bthp damages a lot of tissue and manages to exit leaving good blood trails

I thought the Maven scopes failed most of the tests?


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[kkp005]

it’s a fascinating concept with incredible amounts of evidence of effectiveness. I’ve gone from 223 to 6.5 grendel to 308 after killing Hundreds of hogs on our ranch prioritizing short tracking jobs. I’ve been impressed with the effectiveness of the 308 but much prefer the shootability of the 223 and grendel.

Many hogs are killed from a gator on quick snap-shots where you often dont have time to set up a steady shot from a bag. My experience says the 308 “kills better” but, again, the evidence presented in this thread is undeniable.

Yep. Same boat as you. We shoot a lot of stuff out of Kawasaki mules on the run…. I’m not saying the 77gr TMK’s don’t flat out kill… but I’ve had better luck with recovery’s on less than ideal shot placement when shooting “soft” bullets out of 6creeds and 308s

 

[SamsonMan22]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

In my opinion no not for those ranges. The 223 is more than adequate for that range, killing them more dead with a faster cartridge isn’t getting you any further ahead. The 223 being easy to hit with, stay on target for multiple fast shots, and is cheap to shoot leading to lots of practice.

A lot of my shooting over the years has been fast at moving animals, using the break them down mentality and I always thought bigger was better. Now I’m of the opinion the 223 is the better pick because if follow-up shots are needed I can put them out fast and accurate not to mention I more than likely saw the impact on each shot.

 

[kkp005]

I thought the Maven scopes failed most of the tests?


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Not this one

Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44mm Field Eval

This is a field evaluation of the Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44mm SHR-Mil reticle scope. This scope was given to me by Ryan. The baseline 30 round group with this lot of ammunition was 1.5” at 100 yards. The scope and weight- Turrets: Elevation turret is exposed, revolution indicated, 10...

rokslide.com

 

[sturner88]

In my opinion no not for those ranges. The 223 is more than adequate for that range, killing them more dead with a faster cartridge isn’t getting you any further ahead. The 223 being easy to hit with, stay on target for multiple fast shots, and is cheap to shoot leading to lots of practice.

A lot of my shooting over the years has been fast at moving animals, using the break them down mentality and I always thought bigger was better. Now I’m of the opinion the 223 is the better pick because if follow-up shots are needed I can put them out fast and accurate not to mention I more than likely saw the impact on each shot.

In my opinion no not for those ranges. The 223 is more than adequate for that range, killing them more dead with a faster cartridge isn’t getting you any further ahead. The 223 being easy to hit with, stay on target for multiple fast shots, and is cheap to shoot leading to lots of practice.

A lot of my shooting over the years has been fast at moving animals, using the break them down mentality and I always thought bigger was better. Now I’m of the opinion the 223 is the better pick because if follow-up shots are needed I can put them out fast and accurate not to mention I more than likely saw the impact on each shot.

This is kind of where i’m stuck. The ability to stay on target with a 22 caliber, deliver quick follow-up shots (if presented) but also incapacitating as quickly as possible, sometimes with suboptimal accuracy.

An AR-platform 22arc seems to be a hybridization of the small frame 223 and the energy output of the 22 creed/22-250 but would require me to reload, or better yet have my dad (whom I gave all of my reloading equipment to…thanks 3 year old that occupies much of my free time)

My ruger SFAR was supposed to be the perfect solution for what I needed but had been an utter piece of sh!t and can’t make it 2 rounds without having ejection issues.

 

[Elite]

Not this one

Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44mm Field Eval

This is a field evaluation of the Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44mm SHR-Mil reticle scope. This scope was given to me by Ryan. The baseline 30 round group with this lot of ammunition was 1.5” at 100 yards. The scope and weight- Turrets: Elevation turret is exposed, revolution indicated, 10...

rokslide.com

Awesome thanks


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[SamsonMan22]

This is kind of where i’m stuck. The ability to stay on target with a 22 caliber, deliver quick follow-up shots (if presented) but also incapacitating as quickly as possible, sometimes with suboptimal accuracy.

An AR-platform 22arc seems to be a hybridization of the small frame 223 and the energy output of the 22 creed/22-250 but would require me to reload, or better yet have my dad (whom I gave all of my reloading equipment to…thanks 3 year old that occupies much of my free time)

My ruger SFAR was supposed to be the perfect solution for what I needed but had been an utter piece of sh!t and can’t make it 2 rounds without having ejection issues.

I thought about the 22arc as well but can’t see the point, I would rather have the 223 with the abundance of ammo and brass available being that it is plenty of cartridge in the ranges you listed.

No ARs here so I can’t help you in that department, I’m using a bolt gun. I will say I was a lever gun man for a long time because of how fast I can shoot one, after shooting a deer this year with the 223 I was amazed watching the whole thing unfold. I put a second shot into an animal dead on its feet because I always shoot until they are down. Looking back at it now I more than likely would have watched the animal fall before I got another shot off with something larger if it killed as fast as the 223 did that day.

I shot saw the impact, racked the bolt, and shot again all in the matter of a couple seconds. The deer never left the scope from the time I started until it was laying there dead. I’m sold on it as a 0-500yd gun given the wind isn’t too extreme, I see no need for anything else for my deer hunting here. This coming from a guy who used to think I needed a 30 cal to do the job, one with a magnum head stamp was all the better.

 

[Formidilosus]

I am asking this question for my own knowledge and understanding of terminal ballistics.

What advantages do heavier bullets offer besides higher BCs,wind deflection. Will the extra weight of the heavier bullet drive the bullet deeper and still have the same wound channel with more penetration?

In a fragmenting bullet of the same caliber, a heavier bullet has more to fragment- meaning, all else being equal it penetrates deeper, and the width of the wound is wider/larger the whole length.

 

[sierracharlie338]

This is kind of where i’m stuck. The ability to stay on target with a 22 caliber, deliver quick follow-up shots (if presented) but also incapacitating as quickly as possible, sometimes with suboptimal accuracy.

An AR-platform 22arc seems to be a hybridization of the small frame 223 and the energy output of the 22 creed/22-250 but would require me to reload, or better yet have my dad (whom I gave all of my reloading equipment to…thanks 3 year old that occupies much of my free time)

My ruger SFAR was supposed to be the perfect solution for what I needed but had been an utter piece of sh!t and can’t make it 2 rounds without having ejection issues.

I’m in Texas as well and see the same type of hunting scenarios youve described. A 7 or 8 twist ar is going to do everything you want with a 556 and 77tmk. I’ve been killing animals with a 556 ar platform for many years at this point and wouldn’t hesitate to set one up for this combo. If you really need to anchor them, a central nervous system hit is always an option.

 

[77Grains]

The TMK is a beast of a bullet. It’s too bad everyone has figured it out because prices for commercial 77 grain TMK have just gone through the roof. And besides that availability has become low. I mean just look at Stand 1 they are charging almost 2.00 per round. Last year they were 1.20 a round. And they are not even loading it to 5.56 pressure. BH is pricey as well and I just cannot bring myself to pay the prices. I have found other alternatives and now buy ballistic tipped rounds in 5.56 from other loaders.

 

[jadkins223]

I’m giving up for now on the nonexistent 6x SWFA. I need a scope. Since I limit myself to 400 yards. Is there a good scope option with hold over reticles and not dialing turrets that the RS crew recommends ? PFA


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[xsn10s]

I’m giving up for now on the nonexistent 6x SWFA. I need a scope. Since I limit myself to 400 yards. Is there a good scope option with hold over reticles and not dialing turrets that the RS crew recommends ? PFA


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I use a mil based scope to hold overs. Currently on my AR15 I use a Nikon 4-14 SFP mildot scope out to 800 yards. But any decent mildot or mil based scope should work well depending on the load or ammo. Check for yourself on a ballistics program. I plugged in a 77gr TMK with a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps, 1.7 scope height, at 2200 ft elevation. Easy reticle to use out to 500 yards.

 

[jadkins223]

I use a mil based scope to hold overs. Currently on my AR15 I use a Nikon 4-14 SFP mildot scope out to 800 yards. But any decent mildot or mil based scope should work well depending on the load or ammo. Check for yourself on a ballistics program. I plugged in a 77gr TMK with a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps, 1.7 scope height, at 2200 ft elevation. Easy reticle to use out to 500 yards.

Would something like a BDC scope work too? The center cross then 3 dots? I figure that would take me to 400 ish


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[xsn10s]

Would something like a BDC scope work too? The center cross then 3 dots? I figure that would take me to 400 ish


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It might, it all depends on how the ammo works with the subtentions or dots. IMO using a mildot or mil hash marked reticle works better because it's consistent. Plug in your ammo to a ballistics app like jbm. Or just post your ammo specs here. Bullet, velocity, elevation, scope height will get you started.

 

[xsn10s]

Would something like a BDC scope work too? The center cross then 3 dots? I figure that would take me to 400 ish


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If you already have to scope then give it a try. Just zero it with your ammo of choice and shoot it at 100, 200. 300 yards and so on.

 

[Machingeaneer]

Snag the trijicon Huron 3-9x40 with the BDC reticle at europtic while they're still on sale.