.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[PsRpOiGrRiAtM]

"More speed not necessarily size is my understanding......"

You must've been talking to my wife.

 

[DJL2]

I'd be really curious as to how this conversation would change (or if it would) in a world of mono bullets only? @Ryan Avery @Formidilosus does mono change the discussion to needing/wanting a bigger cartrige (e.g., 7PRC, 300 PRC)? - Thx

Mono bullets only? Perish the thought. Lead free (versus mono) at least gives you DRT and everyone else scrambling to catch up once they realize frangible/fragmentary bullets make a MUCH larger wound than a mono at impact speeds below 2400-2600 fps. DRT makes a 79 grain .224 pill.

I don't do lead free, but if I were doing lead free in .224" that is the only bullet I know of that I would use.

 

[fshaw]

Look at page 26, that’s a good start to your question, but seriously, start reading the whole thread, it’s worth reading, you don’t have to tackle it all at once, but this thread is loaded with really good information

I’d hope that most hunters end up at a .223 after a gaining significant knowledge and experience. Maybe not. Either way, I’d also hope that the hunter would limit themself to what they absolutely know they are capable of closing the deal on. Doesn’t matter if it’s with a .223 or a .300 mag.

 

[Tahr]

I'd be really curious as to how this conversation would change (or if it would) in a world of mono bullets only? @Ryan Avery @Formidilosus does mono change the discussion to needing/wanting a bigger cartrige (e.g., 7PRC, 300 PRC)? - Thx

In general a narrower wound channel with Barnes. I have experience with the 55 grn tipped and they like to meet some firm resistance to really perform.

Ive killed maybe 25 deer with the 60grn Hammer Hunters at 3,150 fps (have posted pics on here) and they kill ok under the same conditions as the 77TMK. Not as emphatic as the TMK but they do kill every time which is the acid test. They create some serious churn to a deer's insides. Although I haven't tried, I don't think the Hammers will be as effective at the range limit of the TMK. Ive shot nothing over 275/300 with the Hammers. They are pretty good.

 

[Elite]

I am asking this question for my own knowledge and understanding of terminal ballistics.

What advantages do heavier bullets offer besides higher BCs,wind deflection. Will the extra weight of the heavier bullet drive the bullet deeper and still have the same wound channel with more penetration?

I have watched a lot of videos on shooting into ballistics gel and the heavier bullet does penetrate better usually


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[ElPollo]

Mono bullets only? Perish the thought. Lead free (versus mono) at least gives you DRT and everyone else scrambling to catch up once they realize frangible/fragmentary bullets make a MUCH larger wound than a mono at impact speeds below 2400-2600 fps. DRT makes a 79 grain .224 pill.

I don't do lead free, but if I were doing lead free in .224" that is the only bullet I know of that I would use.

I’ve been wanting to test the DRT Terminal Shocks and still intend to do so at some point. However, I did find this gel test on YouTube.

It’s not the 79 gr .224 bullet or anything close to an FBI protocol test (wrong gel and no calibration, but heavy on the watermelon), but it does look like the DRTs might have a pretty substantial neck to the wound channel. It looks like 5ish inches of penetration prior to fragmentation even on the 100 yard shot. This is similar to the experiences I’ve had with Lapua Scenars that often do little damage in the front half of the target, but fragment and take out the lung on the back side. The results I saw with that performance were animals running 80-120 yards after the shot. It’s possible they’ll do better than that. One of the guys on here shot a Roosevelt elk with the 135 gr 6.5 DRT and it did significant damage. I also have no info on minimum impact velocity for these at this point.

 

[sturner88]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

 

[PNWGATOR]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

What’s a “fast twist 250”?

Bullets matter. Hit rates. Wound channels. Depth of penetration. Maximum effective range. Delivery systems. Learning to kill efficiency.

It‘s a process.

 

[kkp005]

What’s a “fast twist 250”?

Bullets matter. Hit rates. Wound channels. Depth of penetration. Maximum effective range. Delivery systems. Learning to kill efficiency.

It‘s a process.

I’d imagine he’s talking about a fast twist 22-250 like a 8twist tikka.

 

[sturner88]

What’s a “fast twist 250”?

Bullets matter. Hit rates. Wound channels. Depth of penetration. Maximum effective range. Delivery systems. Learning to kill efficiency.

It‘s a process.

1:8 22-250 shooting 77tmk’s faster than a 223

 

[kkp005]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

I’ve read the whole thread and jumped on the 77gr tmk bandwagon. Shoot them in a 18” tikka 223 and a 18” tikka 22-250. Even have trijicon and maven scopes now (this forum is expensive for me). It’s a mean little green bullet and a kills remarkably well…. But like you, I’m in Texas & where I live you don’t get follow up shots. For whacking hogs and coyotes I grab something that shoots 77gr TMK’s 99% of the time. If I’m shooting deer, I’ve gotten to where I go with my 6creed. It still has minimal recoil but the 105gr hornady bthp damages a lot of tissue and manages to exit leaving good blood trails

 

[wind gypsy]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

I think there’s probably a pretty good correlation in energy to tissue damage given similar velocity and bullet construction but if a deer can run a certain distance with its lungs turned to jello anyway, are you really gaining anything?

 

[Jake Leibke]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

From my experience with a 22 cm and the 77 tmk this past fall they are more “explosive” at higher velocities. I think I posted a few pics in the 22 cm thread. Meaning with a faster delivery system at those ranges damage will be more than with a slower delivery system.

We killed a few with the 223 and 77 tmk as well and really have zero complaints with that as well.


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[sturner88]

I’ve read the whole thread and jumped on the 77gr tmk bandwagon. Shoot them in a 18” tikka 223 and a 18” tikka 22-250. Even have trijicon and maven scopes now (this forum is expensive for me). It’s a mean little green bullet and a kills remarkably well…. But like you, I’m in Texas & where I live you don’t get follow up shots. For whacking hogs and coyotes I grab something that shoots 77gr TMK’s 99% of the time. If I’m shooting deer, I’ve gotten to where I go with my 6creed. It still has minimal recoil but the 105gr hornady bthp damages a lot of tissue and manages to exit leaving good blood trails

it’s a fascinating concept with incredible amounts of evidence of effectiveness. I’ve gone from 223 to 6.5 grendel to 308 after killing Hundreds of hogs on our ranch prioritizing short tracking jobs. I’ve been impressed with the effectiveness of the 308 but much prefer the shootability of the 223 and grendel.

Many hogs are killed from a gator on quick snap-shots where you often dont have time to set up a steady shot from a bag. My experience says the 308 “kills better” but, again, the evidence presented in this thread is undeniable.

 

[Elite]

I’ve read the whole thread and jumped on the 77gr tmk bandwagon. Shoot them in a 18” tikka 223 and a 18” tikka 22-250. Even have trijicon and maven scopes now (this forum is expensive for me). It’s a mean little green bullet and a kills remarkably well…. But like you, I’m in Texas & where I live you don’t get follow up shots. For whacking hogs and coyotes I grab something that shoots 77gr TMK’s 99% of the time. If I’m shooting deer, I’ve gotten to where I go with my 6creed. It still has minimal recoil but the 105gr hornady bthp damages a lot of tissue and manages to exit leaving good blood trails

I thought the Maven scopes failed most of the tests?


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[kkp005]

it’s a fascinating concept with incredible amounts of evidence of effectiveness. I’ve gone from 223 to 6.5 grendel to 308 after killing Hundreds of hogs on our ranch prioritizing short tracking jobs. I’ve been impressed with the effectiveness of the 308 but much prefer the shootability of the 223 and grendel.

Many hogs are killed from a gator on quick snap-shots where you often dont have time to set up a steady shot from a bag. My experience says the 308 “kills better” but, again, the evidence presented in this thread is undeniable.

Yep. Same boat as you. We shoot a lot of stuff out of Kawasaki mules on the run…. I’m not saying the 77gr TMK’s don’t flat out kill… but I’ve had better luck with recovery’s on less than ideal shot placement when shooting “soft” bullets out of 6creeds and 308s

 

[SamsonMan22]

After reading, re-reading and trying to digest as much as possible. Is there any benefit to choosing a fast twist 250, creed or arc if 99.9% of shots are within 300-350 yards with most being shorter? Mainly hunting areas of Texas where you definitely want short tracking jobs.

It’s hard to grasp the concept of not using ft/lb’s of energy as a good measure of how effectively something can be incapacitated.

Maybe it’s my natural aiming point (crease) but i’m amazed at the amount of “follow-up shots” that people in this thread are able to achieve. In my neck of the woods, a pig or deer has made it 50 yards into the woods on a dead sprint before I can blink an eye. (if not “bang-flopped”)

In my opinion no not for those ranges. The 223 is more than adequate for that range, killing them more dead with a faster cartridge isn’t getting you any further ahead. The 223 being easy to hit with, stay on target for multiple fast shots, and is cheap to shoot leading to lots of practice.

A lot of my shooting over the years has been fast at moving animals, using the break them down mentality and I always thought bigger was better. Now I’m of the opinion the 223 is the better pick because if follow-up shots are needed I can put them out fast and accurate not to mention I more than likely saw the impact on each shot.

 

[kkp005]

I thought the Maven scopes failed most of the tests?


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Not this one

Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44mm Field Eval

This is a field evaluation of the Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44mm SHR-Mil reticle scope. This scope was given to me by Ryan. The baseline 30 round group with this lot of ammunition was 1.5” at 100 yards. The scope and weight- Turrets: Elevation turret is exposed, revolution indicated, 10...

rokslide.com

 

[sturner88]

In my opinion no not for those ranges. The 223 is more than adequate for that range, killing them more dead with a faster cartridge isn’t getting you any further ahead. The 223 being easy to hit with, stay on target for multiple fast shots, and is cheap to shoot leading to lots of practice.

A lot of my shooting over the years has been fast at moving animals, using the break them down mentality and I always thought bigger was better. Now I’m of the opinion the 223 is the better pick because if follow-up shots are needed I can put them out fast and accurate not to mention I more than likely saw the impact on each shot.

In my opinion no not for those ranges. The 223 is more than adequate for that range, killing them more dead with a faster cartridge isn’t getting you any further ahead. The 223 being easy to hit with, stay on target for multiple fast shots, and is cheap to shoot leading to lots of practice.

A lot of my shooting over the years has been fast at moving animals, using the break them down mentality and I always thought bigger was better. Now I’m of the opinion the 223 is the better pick because if follow-up shots are needed I can put them out fast and accurate not to mention I more than likely saw the impact on each shot.

This is kind of where i’m stuck. The ability to stay on target with a 22 caliber, deliver quick follow-up shots (if presented) but also incapacitating as quickly as possible, sometimes with suboptimal accuracy.

An AR-platform 22arc seems to be a hybridization of the small frame 223 and the energy output of the 22 creed/22-250 but would require me to reload, or better yet have my dad (whom I gave all of my reloading equipment to…thanks 3 year old that occupies much of my free time)

My ruger SFAR was supposed to be the perfect solution for what I needed but had been an utter piece of sh!t and can’t make it 2 rounds without having ejection issues.

 

[Elite]

Not this one

Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44mm Field Eval

This is a field evaluation of the Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44mm SHR-Mil reticle scope. This scope was given to me by Ryan. The baseline 30 round group with this lot of ammunition was 1.5” at 100 yards. The scope and weight- Turrets: Elevation turret is exposed, revolution indicated, 10...

rokslide.com

Awesome thanks


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