.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[huntnful]

No. That shot was quartering away, from slightly above. It went through the very back of the lungs. I’ve seen 3-4 elk shot high rear lungs with 225’s that needed more shots to stop. 1st off, 225 ELD-M’s do not create 8” wound channels below 2,800’ish fps impact- below 2,400’ish is more like 3” to 4”. Those massive TC’s are due to extremely high impact velocity, once you get below 2,500’ish or so FPS, the wound channels are often indistinguishable between calibers.

Good info. Thank you for clarifying. I thought it looked like a decent shot and was surprised at the outcome.

Most of the massive wounds I’ve seen from larger calibers are around that 2700+fps mark. I’ll need to pay closer attention to the slower impacts as well.

 

[TaperPin]

If I hand you a 9mm & 10mm Glock, which do you think will yield faster, more accurate, & more repeatable hits on target for the overwhelming majority of shooters?

If we go shoot sporting clays, will you have a higher hit rate with a 12 ga shooting 3 1/2" #6s or 2 3/4" #6s?

What makes rifles different? Shooting something better does not mean you shoot the other thing poorly by default.

I like the way you think - I completely agree recoil in the 7 mag or 300 mag range is quite manageable and more prone to accurate shooting than 458 win mag recoil. It’s a shame so many small bore guys have been brainwashed into thinking 20 gauge loads are too much recoil for accurate shooting.

I also like your pistol choices - two cartridges that most guys start off struggling to shoot accurately and require practice to hit anything. I’d bet more guys can shoot a 7 mag accurately than can shoot even the 9mm without flinching.

In both cases you help make the case for larger than 6.5 rifles.

 

[Formidilosus]

Good info. Thank you for clarifying. I thought it looked like a decent shot and was surprised at the outcome.

Most of the massive wounds I’ve seen from larger calibers are around that 2700+fps mark. I’ll need to pay closer attention to the slower impacts as well.

Yes sir. I wouldn’t say it was a “bad” shot- just not a shot to expect animals to succumb to quickly.

This is the exit with hide off-



You can see the stomach (grass bag) showing through the hole. That bullet produced a 3-4” diameter hole all the way through the elk.


At 2,800+ FPS impact, this is what that bullet did to the scapula-

 

[huntnful]

Yes sir. I wouldn’t say it was a “bad” shot- just not a shot to exist animals to succumb to quickly.

This is the exit with hide off-
View attachment 811848


You can see the stomach (grass bag) showing through the hole. That bullet produced a 3-4” diameter hole all the way through the elk.


At 2,800+ FPS impact, this is what that bullet did to the scapula-

View attachment 811851

Oh the actual exit is quite a bit higher than it looks in the “hide on” photo for sure. I can see why it wasn’t promptly lethal much better.

The scapulas are a freaking mess . A little Lighter packout for sure hahaha.

 

[The Guide]

What if we are looking at this wrong and we should be looking the situation as tissue doesn't always react to bullets the same way. Animals are extremely variable in their muscle density, fat content, and even their hydration levels. These could all factor in to why we see such variability in wounds and time to death based upon peoples experience with the animals that they have shot.

Nothing scientific but definitely something to consider as a potential reason for individual variability.

Jay

 

[Formidilosus]

What if we are looking at this wrong and we should be looking the situation as tissue doesn't always react to bullets the same way. Animals are extremely variable in their muscle density, fat content, and even their hydration levels. These could all factor in to why we see such variability in wounds and time to death based upon peoples experience with the animals that they have shot.

Nothing scientific but definitely something to consider as a potential reason for individual variability.

Jay

This is exactly correct. All bullets perform on a bell curve. The extreme ends are all nearly the same- that is all bullets will fail to up at all, and the middle is nearly the same with a large overlap.

 

[WRO]

What does “splash” mean? You’ve shot high shoulder through/into the spine and the animals didn’t fall?

Correct, 6.5 prc 147 225 yards



They don’t require multiple shots to anchor them in a reasonable distance. You shoot them through the spine, or near it- with any of them and they drop. Elk shot through both scapulas where the temporary cavity affects the spine, drop with every caliber.






You’ve lost elk shot through the lungs with “small rounds”? But haven’t lost elk shot through the lungs with large rounds?

Only rifle elk I’ve lost was a 140vld, made it to private with no recovery, double lung in the middle of the herd



I’m trying to find the consistent logical reasoning in what you are writing.


Good luck



Who is? It certainly isn’t me. Over half the elk I’ve killed or been apart of have been public land elk- lots of them bulls. Some open, some in the timber.





More forgiving base on what? I am asking for specifics. Because the above is word salad. What elk, what bullet, what impact velocity, what placement, what organs, what time frame to incapacitation. And the same exact (or as close as feasible) situations with a 30cal, that impact at the velocity, same placement, same organs affected, etc.

I have filled threads full of pictures of animals and wounds channels- lots of them with “small” calibers and “large” calibers used in elk from the same herd, side by side. I have seen very little difference in behavior of those elk with like placement regardless of caliber. Bullets have certainly made a difference.
Shooter performance- that is the amount of animals/shots per capita, however has been dramatically different between “calibers”. 30cal mags have by leaps and bounds more rodeos and crap shows than all small calibers combined.

See above, have a happy new years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WTFJohn]

I like the way you think - I completely agree recoil in the 7 mag or 300 mag range is quite manageable and more prone to accurate shooting than 458 win mag recoil. It’s a shame so many small bore guys have been brainwashed into thinking 20 gauge loads are too much recoil for accurate shooting.

I also like your pistol choices - two cartridges that most guys start off struggling to shoot accurately and require practice to hit anything. I’d bet more guys can shoot a 7 mag accurately than can shoot even the 9mm without flinching.

In both cases you help make the case for larger than 6.5 rifles.

View attachment 811841

This may sound dumb, but do you actually shoot any guns or do you just come to Rokslide to argue?

There is a VERY large difference in 2nd and 3rd shots vs 1st shot between a 2 3/4" and a 3 1/2" shell. In your chart above, there is a 2x+ difference in recoil energy just vs a 3" shell. In reality, guiding duck, goose, and deer hunts professionally for 10 years, there is also a drastic difference in folks' ability to make doubles and triples when shooting 3" vs 3 1/2". Lo and behold, with high quality shells there has been a resurgence in 20 ga duck guns as well. Care to share any videos of you shooting a round of clays just as well with 3 1/2" shells vs a round with 2 3/4" shells?

There is also a huge difference in outcomes with different pistol calibers for the majority of shooters. You aren't seriously arguing that a 10mm can be shot as fast & accurate as a 9mm, are you? Care to share any videos of you doing so?

I will no shit contribute to the ammo fund if you will do any of the above, filming the entire process from stuffing mags to checking targets. I'd also contribute to seeing you shoot some rifle groups with a 6mm and a .30 magnum. 30 round groups of each should do.

 

[mtnbound]

Sure - when a bullet like a TMK, Berger or ELDM comes apart, the fragments shoot in all directions causing major damage and a massive wound cavity. So, you shoot one a little back and there is still a good chance one of the fragments hit vitals. Even it if doesnt hit vitals, the fragments destroy guts and they usually don’t make it very far. A mono or bonded that stays together will have a wound channel if it opens up, but no where near as devastating as a cup and core bullet that fragments.

That is why people who shoot bonded or monolithic bullets can’t wrap their head around a 223 or 6CM being adequate for elk. It is all about bullet construction and performance.

Ok, we are on the same page. I was interpreting it wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[huntnful]

This may sound dumb, but do you actually shoot any guns or do you just come to Rokslide to argue?

There is a VERY large difference in 2nd and 3rd shots vs 1st shot between a 2 3/4" and a 3 1/2" shell. In your chart above, there is a 2x+ difference in recoil energy just vs a 3" shell. In reality, guiding duck, goose, and deer hunts professionally for 10 years, there is also a drastic difference in folks' ability to make doubles and triples when shooting 3" vs 3 1/2". Lo and behold, with high quality shells there has been a resurgence in 20 ga duck guns as well. Care to share any videos of you shooting a round of clays just as well with 3 1/2" shells vs a round with 2 3/4" shells?

There is also a huge difference in outcomes with different pistol calibers for the majority of shooters. You aren't seriously arguing that a 10mm can be shot as fast & accurate as a 9mm, are you? Care to share any videos of you doing so?

I will no shit contribute to the ammo fund if you will do any of the above. I'd also contribute to seeing you shoot some rifle groups with a 6mm and a .30 magnum. 30 round groups of each should do.

You nailed it for sure. My last order of duck/goose loads was 3” copper plated. They kill insanely well vs. 3.5” steel.

I’d venture to say my follow up shots are slightly better/faster as well.

But I also shot 3.5’s better than nearly anyone I’ve ever hunted with (100’s of people), shooting all gauges. Because most people just suck and don’t practice, regardless of their weapon choice.

This is definitely a subject I can partake in. I had over 30,000 rounds down a shotgun before I was 16 years old and have killed 1000’s of birds with a shotgun.

Most effective load I ever shot was actually 20gauge #4 lead. Killed over 50 ducks in an hour with one. No that’s not illegal everywhere, for the internet cops hahaha.

 

[TaperPin]

This may sound dumb, but do you actually shoot any guns or do you just come to Rokslide to argue?

There is a VERY large difference in 2nd and 3rd shots vs 1st shot between a 2 3/4" and a 3 1/2" shell. In your chart above, there is a 2x+ difference in recoil energy just vs a 3" shell. In reality, guiding duck, goose, and deer hunts professionally for 10 years, there is also a drastic difference in folks' ability to make doubles and triples when shooting 3" vs 3 1/2". Lo and behold, with high quality shells there has been a resurgence in 20 ga duck guns as well. Care to share any videos of you shooting a round of clays just as well with 3 1/2" shells vs a round with 2 3/4" shells?

There is also a huge difference in outcomes with different pistol calibers for the majority of shooters. You aren't seriously arguing that a 10mm can be shot as fast & accurate as a 9mm, are you? Care to share any videos of you doing so?

I will no shit contribute to the ammo fund if you will do any of the above. I'd also contribute to seeing you shoot some rifle groups with a 6mm and a .30 magnum. 30 round groups of each should do.

You missed both of my points completely. Let me rephrase it.

1 oz of shot gives about the same recoil as a 7 mag. You keep saying that’s easy to shoot and I agree with you. I agree with you.

I’m simply saying both of those pistol rounds are harder for newbies to shoot than a 7 mag. The lighter of the two rounds is harder to shoot than a 7 mag. If the 10 mm never existed, the 9mm will cause more flinching than a 7 mag. People learn to shoot 9mm’s with a little practice and also shoot 7mag rifles with a little practice.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Good info. Thank you for clarifying. I thought it looked like a decent shot and was surprised at the outcome.

Most of the massive wounds I’ve seen from larger calibers are around that 2700+fps mark. I’ll need to pay closer attention to the slower impacts as well.

You’d have to shoot a vanilla magnum, and not some AI +P NMI crazy ass cartridge like you do to have an impact under 2500 fps

 

[WTFJohn]

You missed both of my points completely. Let me rephrase it.

1 oz of shot gives about the same recoil as a 7 mag. You keep saying that’s easy to shoot and I agree with you. I agree with you.

I’m simply saying both of those pistol rounds are harder for newbies to shoot than a 7 mag. The lighter of the two rounds is harder to shoot than a 7 mag. If the 10 mm never existed, the 9mm will cause more flinching than a 7 mag. People learn to shoot 9mm’s with a little practice and also shoot 7mag rifles with a little practice.

View attachment 811894

I have never said a 2 3/4" 12 ga was easy to shoot. I have seen hundreds of people make the fastest three misses of their lives with that combo.

Does a 7mm create a cone of pellets on each shot that spreads roughly 1" per 3' traveled to allow for that recoil to be compensated for with more hits on target? You also realize shotguns are limited to ~50 yds for most shooters and loads, right? Recoil tends to have a smaller effect relative to the target (due to swinging through the shot), yet we still saw folks shooting 3 1/2" shells to be worse on followups, and later in the morning on their first shot as well. You think the same recoil, on a target sub-12" across at 10x+ that distance doesn't pose challenges?

The only people saying magnums and larger caliber bullets don't kill seem to be people stuck on defending larger calibers or making fun of those that shoot smaller calibers. You continue to shit up good threads with unprompted, ignorance-based drivel. I don't doubt you have plenty of years of hunting and shooting experience, I just wish it was 50 years of experience instead of the first 5, repeated 10 times.

The offer stands, name the bullets your rifles like and I will send you 30 rds of each to prove me wrong. Video from mag loading to checking targets. Alternatively, fulfill the pistol or shotgun videos. Since recoil doesn't matter, this should be easy to knock out in an afternoon. If you are ever in my part of the country, PM me and we can shoot pistol/rifle/shotgun in a day and film both of our results.

This is the end of my thread derail with you.

 

[huntnful]

You’d have to shoot a vanilla magnum, and not some AI +P NMI crazy ass cartridge like you do to have an impact under 2500 fps

Haha I guess I really have very few kills under 2500fps honestly. 5 are from a 6.5 CM and only maybe 5 or 6 over 600 yards with the bigger cartridges (which some still might not be 2500fps). I know the bull I just killed at 1100 yards was still almost 2200fps impact if I remember right. I need to jump on a calculator and check numbers.

My data is clearly skewed and biased lol. #noragrets

 

[LostWapiti]

I was with a friend who shot a bull elk with a 6.5 Creedmoor shooting factory ELDX 143 grain and while it was not a total failure it really turned me off the 6.5 Creedmoor. He shot the bull 5 times in the lungs before it expired. The whole ordeal took about 10 minutes. The bull layed down at one point, and then got back up again. We got the bull but you wont be catching me shooting that combo. Impact velocity there would have been about 2100.

I have been hunting with a 300WSM with 215 Berger at 2800 and it works great but I did just pick up a 243 and plan to shoot 109s at 3000. I’d like to keep impact velocities as high as possible and above 2200 to give the animal that hydrostatic shock or its like you are just shooting them with an arrow.

 

[Axlrod]

I have never said a 2 3/4" 12 ga was easy to shoot. I have seen hundreds of people make the fastest three misses of their lives with that combo.

Does a 7mm create a cone of pellets on each shot that spreads roughly 1" per 3' traveled to allow for that recoil to be compensated for with more hits on target? You also realize shotguns are limited to ~50 yds for most shooters and loads, right? Recoil tends to have a smaller effect relative to the target (due to swinging through the shot), yet we still saw folks shooting 3 1/2" shells to be worse on followups, and later in the morning on their first shot as well. You think the same recoil, on a target sub-12" across at 10x+ that distance doesn't pose challenges?

The only people saying magnums and larger caliber bullets don't kill seem to be people stuck on defending larger calibers or making fun of those that shoot smaller calibers. You continue to shit up good threads with unprompted, ignorance-based drivel. I don't doubt you have plenty of years of hunting and shooting experience, I just wish it was 50 years of experience instead of the first 5, repeated 10 times.

The offer stands, name the bullets your rifles like and I will send you 30 rds of each to prove me wrong. Video from mag loading to checking targets. Alternatively, fulfill the pistol or shotgun videos. If recoil doesn't matter, this should be easy to knock out in an afternoon. If you are ever in my part of the country, PM me and we can shoot pistol/rifle/shotgun in a day and film both of our results.

This is the end of my thread derail with you.

Replying to someone that has posted 3500+ times in less than 1.5 years is really never going to be good. I don't recall a single post he has made that was helpful or pertinent to any thread. It's all just drivel to be ignored.

 

[RockAndSage]

Most effective load I ever shot was actually 20gauge #4 lead. Killed over 50 ducks in an hour with one. No that’s not illegal everywhere, for the internet cops hahaha.

Take me to this nirvana, this land of the free...

(seriously, I had no idea it was legal, anywhere in the US...)

I have never said a 2 3/4" 12 ga was easy to shoot. I have seen hundreds of people make the fastest three misses of their lives with that combo.

On the recoil and shotgunning note, I can add to your point in saying that I picked up a hell of a flinch from shooting 3.5" 12ga at waterfowl a couple of years ago. Only noticed it after shooting a couple of wounded birds on the water, but it took a long time to unwind that problem after it set in. Especially since I didn't realize it was there for awhile when shooting at flying birds. Not noticing your flinch while shooting at living things is a thing.

Went down to 2 3/4" loads shooting 1oz of TSS #8s, and hit rate went way up, with wounded birds going way down - while 2nd and 3rd follow-up shots were a lot more accurate as well.

And I'm starting to see a lot of chatter where guys are getting excellent results with TSS in 28ga and 20 on waterfowl, including geese, with a big surge of people shooting TSS at turkey with .410 with a lot of success.

FBI went down to 9mm from .40, which itself was a drop from 10mm, as bullet technology negated a lot of what had been advantageous with larger calibers in earlier decades. And, got the bonus of greater accuracy on first and follow-up shots when getting rid of the recoil of 10mm, then .40.

Whether rifle, pistol, or shotgun, there seems to be a very clear trend that as projectile technology goes up, necessary mass and recoil go down to get the same lethal effects, with greater shooter accuracy. Each shooter may have their own recoil threshold they can handle better than others, but none of this trend is random.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Bigger bullets create more recoil which leads to worse shot placement.

Worse shot placement leads to needing a larger wound channel to hit something vital.

Sarcasm, I love it.

I would say follow up shots when recovering from heavier recoil would out of logic take longer to get back on target for that second shot.

In a fit of luck (because it couldn't be anything besides luck...) and 40+ big game animals from Pronghorn, whitetails, muley's to elk, the vast majority being deer and elk, I can count on one hand with a few fingers leftover the number that took more than one shot. Distances range from well under 100 yds to ~400 yds. 35 Whelen AI, .300 Win Mag, 270 Win, 30-06 are the cartridges doing the work. Gotta say it's a dump truck load of luck apparently that has gotten more than a few dump trucks of wild game in the freezer with those mean bigger bullets coming from those mean and outdated bigger cases creating all that recoil and worse shot placement.

No flies on smaller choices, they work for those that use them. Be careful when you knock what works for others or backhandedly question shot placement as being a reason or need to shoot a different larger caliber as you did above.

 

[huntnful]

Take me to this nirvana, this land of the free...

(seriously, I had no idea it was legal, anywhere in the US...)

Argentina. The land of baiting and lead shot lol. My dad, my brother and I killed 150 ducks in an hour flat. It was insane. When we got done, 4 dudes carried 4 giant sacks of rice back out into the field. Never saw that before. It definitely works, I’ll tell ya haha.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Take me to this nirvana, this land of the free...

(seriously, I had no idea it was legal, anywhere in the US...)

Wrong “America” my man.